"Moore County Debt Crisis" by Poorer County Debt

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

Just click on the image and it will open to a new window.

Mismanagement of taxpayers money has created uncontrolled debt for the next several decades. by Tommy Davis

Sherwood 9 months, 1 week ago

What accounts for the 500%+ increase in general and utility fund debt?

And is there a chart that breaks down Moore County revenue from taxes and fees?

CSmithson 9 months, 1 week ago

Tommy, I am as critical of the County as just about anyone but you and a few others, but I think it is not right to just throw these numbers out there without explanation/context.

-First, the school (grade and SCC) debt was from a bond referendum approved by MC voters a number of years ago.

-Second, the utility debts are at the very least not to be paid off by general MC taxpayers. They are to be paid through the utility funding coming from water and/or sewer customers of MC Public Utilities. While there are some issues with the allocation formulas, the debt is for things like lift stations, treatment plant expansions, and distribution.collectiion line maintenance/upgrades. If anything, MCPU should be criticized for taking so long to address these reasonable and necessary infrastructure issues.

-Those items set aside there is clearly the financing of the new jail among other things. Personally, I think the Commissioners should have been realistic and not tried to look better by unsustainably cutting the tax rate when they knew we had major and unavoidable projects such as the new jail, but that discussion is over far fewer dollars than if one tries to throw in voter-approved and utility related projects.

I mean to give no free pass on the jail debate, but the three(combine school and SCC) lines on the spreadsheet are very different.

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

Sherwood => Answers to your questions are found in county documents in Carthage. This one document reflects debt owed by taxpayers and unsubstantial increases in public debt since 2007. Others on these boards take shots at me for using the nomenclature of "Poorer County". He's my response. It's time people of this county took time to understand what is going on in Carthage.

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

Chris, I agree with some reservations:

"-First, the school (grade and SCC) debt was from a bond referendum approved by MC voters a number of years ago.

That is true, as well as Sandhills Community College has never seen a year where a previous bond has been exhausted before another campaign to launch another full page media attack to convince voters to open their wallets to another decade of more of debt. If you recall, students were given flyers for parents to support the bond referendum, teachers were intimidated if they expressed opposing opinions, and how long has it been since teachers or professors have had a cost of living increase? SCC continues to advertise for student enrollments to fill half - empty classrooms.

"They are to be paid through the utility funding coming from water and/or sewer customers of MC Public Utilities."

I agree with the logic but not the reality. How many years will taxpayers bear the cost of water and sewer infrastructure before the total expense has been recouped? The Commissioners argued about who was to pay for what enhancements to decades old sewer and water lines in Pinehurst.

Then they looked at the Wagram Water Plan [Burlington Mills] and flushed that with other indecisive decisions. Pinehurst began negotiations while the county was still trying to find a solution. Back on board was the county, and then an attempt to negotiate Robbins' water system.

Meanwhile back in accounting, taxpayers are footing the bills for floundering indecision's. Perhaps the county shouldn't use any general fund revenues from any other source than water and sewer users. That should be a totally separate account, not co-mingled.

Other pending questions that should be addressed is the purchase of Municipal Software without a biding process by the Board. The only lame excuse I've heard is we can purchase anything we want without a bid process. Secondly, why are taxpayers paying for water and sewer lines to a golf course formally owned by the Town of Carthage? Two lift stations and a million dollars worth of lines. That was a decision Larry Caddell, as Mayor,chose to do while holding a public office. The beginning of unethical decisions that would carry over to the old courthouse and continues today.

In response Chris, there are way too many unanswered questions about whose paying now ... not after millions of dollars for water and sewer lines are in the ground in the distant future. Albeit, those who have "paid" in advance living in the northern Moore County communities continue to wonder when they will have water connected to those expensive meters?

Sherwood 9 months, 1 week ago

A 500%+ increase in debt, and the numbers alone, may be astonishing (especially to a lay person such as myself). But I'm inclined to agree with CSmithson that some context and additional figures (related Moore County's ability to service the debt presented) are necessary before this can be considered "sounding the alarm" in a truly meaningful way.

If I had time, I'd drive out to Carthage to do the additional research myself. But I urge you to take it upon yourself to do so in order to make your post more informative, as you have taken it upon yourself to present the figures above with no additional context or research.

Bflat 9 months, 1 week ago

Debt is debt that must be repaid. While the Commish may have lowered the tax rate in the past, value stream revenue sources were added in the background....like tax on cell phones and cable bills. Ever heard of the "Moore County Telecom Sales Tax?" Take a look at your bill to see if you are paying it and it is probably right under the NC State Telecom Sales Tax.

Also, keep in mind that the new courthouse has not been built yet. This will add to the future County debt load. What is going to be the cost of furnishing the public safety and the new federal sized JAIL and how about the administration and maintenance cost of all that?

I appreciate that CSmithson follows the workings of County Government and respect his opinions.

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

Sherwood => Thank you for your civil remarks and arguably, those [real] numbers are meant to shock taxpayers into thinking which direction our county government is heading.

I have the utmost respect for Chris Smithson who I consider a friend; but we disagree on points of contention many times.

You can request a PDF copy of the last Moore County audit from Laura Williams - Clerk to the Board: clerktoboard@moorecountync.gov

The complete document set includes several pages. Since file exchanges are not available through these boards, it would be difficult to send you a complete folder.

One suggestion for anyone who cares to retain anonymity is to set up a Gmail account through Google...identities will be confidential IF you don't use your real name as a part of the address line.

I hope this helps. Tommy

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

Yep ~ PM, those figures came from the county...Caddell and company cannot posture when presented with factual information from county government. Since you want to blame someone other than the Big Spenders in Carthage, blame the accounting department for using those figures that must be obviously in error.

Thedarkknight 9 months, 1 week ago

The majority of the debt Toad is from voter approved school bonds for capital improvements, and we also have the improvements to the water treatment plant. Actually we are paying down debt here in Moore County, paying off the note early which is saving the taxpayers money in interest. Toad again your incoherent rants and skewered numbers don't fool anybody. Your a frustrated, psychologically disturbed human being who wants to be in power and it ticks you off that you will never be in elected office, because the people of Moore County see you for what you are. It's over your finished. Go home.

Thedarkknight 9 months, 1 week ago

By the way toad," The is no need to write a short story" is great grammar by the way.

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

TDN ~ The county board of commissioners decide if a bond referendum will go on a ballot. Except when TPO-4 thinks the people will vote it down like the real estate transfer tax and the Gold Bar Hilton. Caddell and Picerno voted for the people of Poorer County.

Go back an read post number 5 and perhaps you might just understand. How many IP addresses does Southern Software have at their disposal for all these newbies who have come on board?

Debt is debt which is money owed by the taxpayers of Poorer County. O' I forgot, Picerno isn't running unopposed in November! Now I understand why all of a sudden blogs have become more entertaining.

More to come on the debt crisis in Poorer County ... "Toad again your incoherent rants and skewered numbers don't fool anybody." So where commissioner did those numbers come from if not from Ken Larken? Now blame it on the folks in accounting....

reaganite 9 months, 1 week ago

I guess the real question is Toda what is the crisis? The numbers I have seen show that we paid off $6,000,000.00 in debt this year and with no increase taxes. So where is this crisis you speak of? It seems to this unbiased person that you seem to have an agenda here.

reaganite 9 months, 1 week ago

And another thing that I noticed. Why does the report use as a reference point as June 2007, wouldn't have been more accurate to use December 2007? Sounds like someone was trying to inflate the numbers. This report was prepared at Tim Lea's behest wasn't it? Sounds like Mr. Lea has an agenda too.

reaganite 9 months, 1 week ago

Toda since you have all the facts, answer these questions. 1. When was the single largest tax increase by percentage on the taxpayers of Moore County and who voted for it? 2. If we have a debt crisis, then why haven't we seen massive tax increases? 3. If we have a debt crisis then why hasn't the county lost it's AA bond rating? 4. When was the last time the counties debt rating was increased from A to AA resulting in millions of dollars in savings for the taxpayer's? 5. Isn't true that we have less date today than we did four years ago and that includes the building of the detention center? 6. If we have a debt crisis, than why hasn't the county defaulted on it's obligations? 7. If we have a debt crisis than why has the county paid down over $32,000,000.00 in debt since 2008?

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

Ken Larking asked for the report, not Tim Lea. I think the report was transmitted at Commissioner Lea's request and was sent to several outlets for media consideration.

2007 was when new Commissioners came on board, and the numbers reflect increases since that time.

You point out information that is unsubstantiated ... I have requested from Laura Williams a copy of the last audit...you probably are already aware of my request under the Freedom of Information Act.

I can''t nor have no intention of speaking for Tim Lea... you are aware of that as well.

" Sounds like someone was trying to inflate the numbers." County staff perhaps? That's where the numbers came from as far as I am aware.....

reaganite 9 months, 1 week ago

Toda you didn't answer the questions. Let me ask them again. 1. If we have a debt crisis than why haven't we seen massive tax increases? 2. If we have a debt crisis than why have we actually increased our borrowing rating from A to AA over the last four years? 3. If we have a debt crisis than why is the county not defaulting on it's obligations? 4. If we have a debt crisis than why do we have less debt today than we did four years ago and that includes the building of the public safety center? These are straightforward questions Toda. Since you seem to be the debt guru of the county, I should think these are easy questions.

Thedarkknight 9 months, 1 week ago

Toad, your report is a Tim Lea propoganda piece that he had made up. He didn't factor in the bonds from the schools approved in December because it makes it look like we have this huge debt explosion. Toad is Tim Lea's....... well Toad is a dog person he can figure it out.

Thedarkknight 9 months, 1 week ago

@reaganite- Don't waste your time with Toad, he is a psychologically disturbed, frustrated human being who wants to be in power and who isn't and who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. Here is Toad's resume. 1. Failed at running for office. 2. Claims to be a conservative yet he supports Obama and his failed policies. 3. He had a nervous breakdown prompting his wife to call the cops in fear and then after he resisted the officers and proved uncooperative he then lied about our brave officers in uniform, in the face of the tapes being released. Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer, he has none.

reaganite 9 months, 1 week ago

@Darkknight- Look I don't know Toda or you but I do want the facts to be heard. The facts are that we as a county have less debt today then we did four years ago. We have paid down debt early in the amount of $32,000,000.00 over the last four years. We haven't seen massive tax increases, no decrease in our bond rating, actually it increased. We haven't defaulted on our obligations. My questions to Toad are relevant. What defines a crisis?

Thedarkknight 9 months, 1 week ago

One of the reasons I am so rough with Toad is that he has done this for years and I think it's high time someone gave it back. But lets stick with the facts. Tim Lea was on the board when they raised taxes in 2007 and he voted for it. Under his tenure from 2004-2008 taxes were increased by over 33% on the voters on Moore County and the only budget he voted against was in 2008. Tim wanted to build a Jail that was more expensive and was bigger and further down the property than what was approved, and he wanted to basically scrap the old jail which would have wasted the investment that was in there already. He campaigned in 2008 that we needed a 8cent tax increase to pay for the school bonds and for capital improvement, and in a candidates debate when Nick Picerno said that we didn't need to raise taxes to service the debt, Tim disagreed and wondered where the "magic dollars" were. Tim Lea was the one in the closed session meeting regarding the property adjacent to the veterans memorial who started the conversation and if you listen to the tape was actually called down by Nick Picerno and Tim continued. Tim Lea is using the veterans of this county and for his own political agenda and he wants to lecture us about ethics. What about Tim Lea steering cell phone tower contracts to his family when he was head of the planning board. Tim Lea is a liberal and a dishonest politician and a hypocrite and Toad is too for not calling him out on it. Toad and Tim Lea are similar in that they twist the facts and they have an axe to grind against the other board members.

reaganite 9 months, 1 week ago

Well Tim Lea is leaving so he will be a non-issue. Toda still needs to answer these questions.

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

Sounds to me like Southern Software, Inc is attempting to rationalize record increases in debt. I would bet a bent rusty nail that the two of you are sitting in the same office or building at SS Inc.

Interesting that not one of you have brought up the issue of Municipal Software and Larry Caddell and George Little financing a campus police department on the Sandhills Campus or future sales if another community college ever considers a police department. Ethical behavior is what TDK brought up.

Lets move the conversation to Mr. White! Commissioner Picerno ... remember him? Wasn't he the founder of Southern Software or was he already serving time in Federal Prison?

I think Mr. Picerno you should answer one question: Why has the public debt increased over 300% with excess of 195 million in debt increasing to 200 million?

Email from Laura Williams ~ Clerk to the Board:

Mr. Davis,

There are several years of the County's Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports (CAFRs) available online at www.co.moore.nc.us/index.php/cafrs. />

Regarding your request for information on the Detention Center, I will forward it on to you as soon as I receive it from staff.

Thank you,

Laura M. Williams, MPA, NCCCC Clerk to the Board/Public Relations Officer Moore County Board of Commissioners One Courthouse Square, P.O. Box 905 Carthage, NC 28327 Phone: (910)-947-6403

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

FYI ~ TDK or Garrison which ever ~ For the record Sir, Tim Lea has never suggested, implied, or discussed any comments I post on these boards or others. I have never discussed his personal life or involvement in family business. I have never asked nor inquired. He can answer your assertions himself.

I am very capable of researching information on my own. If you were old enough when I wrote a Letter to the Editor when Jimmie Melton and Nick Picerno was running for office, you would see where at that time I supported the fact that two businessmen were being elected to the MCBoC. Only their actions or inaction's on the part of Jimmie Melton has changed my views and perspectives on who they really represent and their motives. Jimmie isn't independent from Larry ~ Craig is joined at the hip with Nick. So in-essence there are really only two people who run this county, well three if you include George Little....Call your next case or ask the pilot to run my letter again....

Thedarkknight 9 months, 1 week ago

Toad why aren't you answering the questions? Sounds like you can't.

reaganite 9 months, 1 week ago

Toda why won't you answer my questions? I'll give them to you again. 1. If we have a debt crisis than why haven't we seen massive tax increases? 2. If we have a debt crisis than why have we actually increased our borrowing rating from A to AA over the last four years? 3. If we have a debt crisis than why is the county not defaulting on it's obligations? 4. If we have a debt crisis than why do we have less debt today than we did four years ago and that includes the building of the public safety center? Toda you are losing credibility here. If your assertions are true then the answer to these questions should be available to you. Please anwer them, or if you can't just say so.

reaganite 9 months, 1 week ago

The other question I would have Toda, you seem to have been saying the same thing for quite sometime. Why is it that no one takes you seriously? If there was a crisis, wouldn't other folks notice it, especially in their tax bills?

Thedarkknight 9 months, 1 week ago

I don't know who Garrison is but buddy you need to answer the questions reaganite puts to you cuz they are starting to make you look silly, well more than you already are. Sounds like your squealing.

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

Thedarkknight => Had you kept abreast of the media dialogue over the past 3 years, perhaps you would be better informed and less a Johnnie-come-lately. And I'm not your Cuz!

reaganite => Just like national debt, the numbers are there and the next door will close when Poorer County applies for another momentous loan like the bundled package that taxpayers were not allowed to vote. First time in Poorer County History.

Secondly you are obviously aware of the difference between a General Obligation Bond and a Limited Obligation Bond ... which one did the absence of taxpayer vote come to fruition? Nick Picerno said during the meeting with the bonding company, we will raise taxes only if the court tells us to increase taxes. Off the hook perhaps. Secondly, the Gold Bar Hilton will be foreclosed upon if the debt becomes delinquent, or the court can request a tax increase. That is how Poorer County retained their bond rating ... but you knew that already.

New commercial and residential growth has delayed tax increases through the tax office. There are so many subliminal taxes in Poorer County that produce revenue ~ which I posted on another blog. I will write another blog outlining my response in total to your questions. I have to have permissions to reprint letters from other sources addressing public debt.

You may have not wanted to open that can of worms, but since you asked...I will answer all of your questions once I have done some research.

Who is "no one" raganite ... do you and others have a public poll that I've missed seeing? Or is that more of your twaddle?

Thedarkknight 9 months, 1 week ago

Toda out of that whole response what not one answer to any of reaganite's questions. They are calling you out and you can't respond because you don't have the facts. The fact is that the last budget Tim Lea voted for which was the 2007 re-evaluation, Tim Lea voted in a 33% tax increase on the tax payers of Moore County. Tim Lea is not a conservative and is trying to divide and distort and you are his little puppet. Next lie?

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

" If we have a debt crisis than why do we have less debt today than we did four years ago and that includes the building of the public safety center? "

A 500% increase in public debt is not less debt nor is $196 million in debt less debt than 4 years ago! School Funding has increased from FY06-07 ($26,064,794) to $32,189,992. in FY1-12 an increase of $ 6,125,198.00

Total General Fund Revenues: $85,012,422: Property Tax, Sales Tax (County portion), Interest income, Other Revenues ($24,459,422) TAX ~ TAX ~ TAX

Reductions in General Fund Expenditures (adopted) $84,940,545 your numbers Nick.

Tax Collection based on 0.465 rate per 100 collect County General $52,726,582.

Tax rate appears to be low except when one figures there is $32,213,963 dollars in revenue over and about Property Tax figures...so where is that coming from other than subliminal taxes not reflected in residential property tax numbers.

As of June 30, 2011 (to be updated) total bond debt was $135,323,267 before one penny of interest.Now lets add $60,268,733 in interest and Whalla we are now almost $200 million in public debt!

More to come and more up-to-date figures on Poorer County's Debt Crisis!

Toda 9 months, 1 week ago

Thedarkknight => "Tim Lea was the one in the closed session meeting regarding the property adjacent to the veterans memorial who started the conversation and if you listen to the tape was actually called down by Nick Picerno and Tim continued. "

Obviously you are pulling facts from other commissioners, since your facts are not congruent with the October 11, 2011 taped minutes of the closed session...go ahead an listen and then post your "skewed" facts.

reaganite 9 months, 1 week ago

Toda again you didn't not answer the questions. 1. If we have a debt crisis than why haven't we seen massive tax increases? 2. If we have a debt crisis than why have we actually increased our borrowing rating from A to AA over the last four years? 3. If we have a debt crisis than why is the county not defaulting on it's obligations? 4. If we have a debt crisis than why do we have less debt today than we did four years ago and that includes the building of the public safety center? Toda you need to answer these questions. If you can't answer these question with the data you have that you say points to a debt crisis, then why can't you answer these questions? And by the way you are wrong on the report. Tim Lea actually requested for Ken Larkin to create the report and Tim Lea chose the criteria.

cooldaddy 9 months ago

This Davis idiot is just a liar. Plain and simple. He couldn't answer, on a very recent blog, why he and Bflat lied about the closed session tapes. it was clear Tim Lea started the improper conversation and was outspoken in the closed session, yet they put it on the TPO 3 or 4. They just lie to further their agenda. It is good to keep this idiot in check. He has not answered reaganite. He did not answer me. He will not because it will just be a lie. Also he pouts and throws cyber tantrums so watch out...his little photo turns blue. A Bully will always lose in the end. Now for the "Non-Answer"

Thedarkknight 9 months ago

You nailed it cooldaddy. The reason there is no truthful answer is that the facts don't support a lie. Toad has been lying and misrepresenting numbers it appears for a long time. Reaganite asks real questions and brings up legitimate facts and all Tommy does repeat his talking points that is fed to him by TIm Lea. Like I said before he is Tim Lea's little b......well Toad is a dog person he can figure out the rest.

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