Clamp a Damper On Voucher Idea

Wednesday, March 6, 2013

H ere's one "option" on which North Carolina legislators should opt out. Predictably, with the Republicans having now consolidated their governmental powers at the state level, the idea of school "vouchers," a system under which public tax money would be used to support private schools at the elementary and secondary levels, has again raised its head in Raleigh. The sooner that concept can sink back down into oblivion, where it belongs, the better.

The public schools in Moore County and elsewhere are already hard up, as anyone can tell you who feels frequently barraged by pleas to help with various fundraising efforts for supplies and activities that should be covered routinely through tax money. Teachers themselves often have to dig into their own pockets to pay for classroom necessities. Budgets are stretched to the breaking point.

This is, therefore, an especially inappropriate time to be talking about siphoning away any of the money that now is supposed to be going to public schools and routing it instead into "vouchers" that parents would be enabled to cash in to help make it possible to enroll their kids in private schools instead.

A Foot in the Door

To be sure, the proposals that have surfaced to this point would not go very far toward covering the full cost of private school tuition. Vouchers, as now envisioned by supporters of proposals bouncing around the legislative halls, would provide something in the neighborhood of $2,000 to $3,000 per year per pupil.

Still, that sounds like a classic case of letting the camel get its head under the tent, as the old saying goes. Next thing you know, the whole animal is snuggling comfortably inside.

The concept of public schools is one rooted in American history - and one that has served North Carolina particularly well.

Public schools aren't just there for the benefit of individual parents or households alone. They were created, and continue to be sustained, out of an awareness that a high-quality education made available to the widest segment of the public serves an important civic purpose. And the line between public and private schools should be kept as distinct as that between, say, church and state.

Keep the Line Unblurred

Public schools will always have an important role to play - especially for families that prefer a particular kind of education, often a religiously based one, for the children.

But the understanding has always been that those parents who desire to provide a private education for their children have to be willing to pay for it.

Blurring this time-honored distinction by dipping into public funds for the purpose of financing even part of a private education has always been a bad idea. But it does seem especially objectionable in this time of severe economic stress, when state funding of public education has long since gone beyond trimming fat and is now having to cut into flesh and bone.

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Middleman522 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Giving the corrupt portion of the "teachers' union" something to worry about, is worth any effort. If they had more interest in teaching our kids how to succeed in life and less interest in teaching them how to vote and avoid work, we would have no need for private schools. But as long as progressives like Bill Ayers have anything to do with public education, we need choices and I'm fine with my tax dollars going to a dedicated teacher with NO Liberal marching orders. Sorry but that's just the way it is these days. And you'll see a response from people like Russell who think that SUVs have more to do with our weather than the sun, and that God had less to do with all creations that a gas explosion! Consider the source. This is what's being taught by progressives.

KittyIsis 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Liberals and their devotion to Agenda 21 have invaded our schools. Your best answer is to home school before your children are indoctrinated into the "progressive" agenda which is presently being drilled into them in the public school system. It's not public education any more......it is public indoctrination of the undereducated.

clarabelle 2 months, 2 weeks ago

" Middleman - Giving the corrupt portion of the "teachers' union" something to worry about"

I try to comment politely ........... but when I see how damn STUPID your comments are........well!

clarabelle 2 months, 2 weeks ago

" KittyIsis - Liberals and their devotion to Agenda 21 have invaded our schools. "

You must be CLOSELY related to middleman ...............same ol garbage!

teufelhunden 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Yet they spend a zillion dollars on jails...go figure.

fugitiveguy 2 months, 2 weeks ago

How much money have the schools recieved from the "education" lottery? I thought that was going to be the end of the hand wringing about teachers having to foot the bill for supplies. Education, like any other gov't entity is insatiable when it comes to $$$

Thatcher 2 months, 2 weeks ago

fugitiveguy-- Here's your answer: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/8347262/. Shameful. Cheers my friend!

Themis 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Moore County Schools has more pork spending than Washington!

Themis 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Aaron Spence takes over as Superintendent of Moore County schools... Spence's starting salary will be $165,000.00.

Compare that to the list of Top Politicians in NC.

Governor $139,590[2] Pat McCroy- Lieutenant Governor $123,198 -Dan Forest Secretary of State $123,198 Elaine Marshall Attorney General -$123,198 Roy Cooper Treasurer $123,198

geoffcutler 2 months, 2 weeks ago

kittylis, you raise a valid point on public education. Don't fret the belle. She has nothing to offer but insult.

JimRussell44 2 months, 2 weeks ago

First, a correction to the article is in order. In the 3rd paragraph from the bottom, the term "public schools will always....." should read "private schools will always.....".

Next, Jim Alley 522 again makes me laugh out loud. This man is certifiably hilarious. All of you on the right must be so proud of this spokesperson.

Kittyliss and Geoff Cutler have a problem sharing earth with the rest of its inhabitants. To them, the United Nations is a subversive plot to strip them of their rightful place as lord and master over everything and everybody. How dare there be any kind of non-binding, voluntary action plan world wide (Adgenda 21) to achieve sustainable development, or to combat poverty, promote health issues, protect fragile environments, help control pollution or strive to improve the station of women and children of this world. Kitty and Cutler don't give a flying fig for the rest of the world, they only care about themselves. Unfortunately, this is why a lot of people in this world don't like us.

geoffcutler 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Readers interested in learning about progressive intentions for our children's public education will research "Common Core Curriculum."

JER, as usual, you don't know what you're talking about.

sbouser 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Jim Russell is right. We meant to write, "Private schools will always have a place ..." Our bad.

Middleman522 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Russell, Bill Ayres and Barry raised $100million in IL for the Anninburg Project I think it was called, all for the purpose of taking over the education system so progressives could spew their hate of capitalism and conservatives. Do a little homework between insults and are you denying your beliefs in Global Warming and the Big Bag theory?? Other than that what is so funny about what I wrote. Your blanket insults mean nothing if you can't answer the questions or points. Keep your posts "factual", look that word up if you need to, or just keep making yourself look mad! Unions and the media are 75%+ liberal and these facts are known. The reasons are market share,(control) and keeping their jobs,(control) typical liberal motivation, more control! And I'm not a spokesman, I'm an American and I still have freedom of speech, last time I checked!

fugitiveguy 2 months, 2 weeks ago

useful idiot is a pejorative term for people perceived as propagandists for a cause whose goals they do not understand, and who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause.

Toda 2 months, 2 weeks ago

"JLS wrote: here's the latest info on your NC Teacher's UNION, the NCAE! http://www.nccivitas.org/2011/ncae-looking-ou...

The NCAE represents about half of NC's teachers. It has no collective bargaining power and no ability to strike. By only the very loosest of definitions would this be considered a UNION. But we'll stick to organization/union/whatever. You seem surprised that an organization would look out for it's paying member's best interest. Are you really that naive? I suppose you think the NRA shouldn't worry about protecting the right to own firearms? No, that's as silly as the article you linked to.

Report: NC teacher pay slides against peer states By EMERY P. DALESIO, Associated Press Updated 6:41 pm, Wednesday, March 6, 2013

RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) — North Carolina public school teachers saw their pay drop to among the lowest in the country as state budget-balancing during the Great Recession included a multi-year pay freeze, according to a report Wednesday to the State Board of Education. Pay for the teachers who educate the state's roughly 1.5 million public school students ranks 46th in the country, above only Mississippi and West Virginia among 12 Southeastern states, the report said. Five years ago, North Carolina teacher salaries were in the middle of the state rankings.

Toda 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Middleman522 19 hours, 25 minutes ago Giving the corrupt portion of the "teachers' union" something to worry about,

See above Jim and you will find Teachers Unions in NC are non-existent ...

CSmithson 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Geoff,

What's fundamentally wrong with Common Core? It seems to make a lot of sense to have a general set of standards/benchmarks across different schools and systems. It doesn't appear to dictate content, such as specific reading lists. It seems to be focused on ensuring certain skills at each level while keeping wide open for choice the actual content used in the classroom.

Frankly, when I heard a presentation on Common Core, I thought to myself, "you mean we weren't doing this before?"

geoffcutler 2 months, 2 weeks ago

The content is the issue. What's being taught? What's inside the textbooks?

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/wbtminternetradio/2013/03/06/community-conversation-by-women-on-the-wall

dentman65 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Who of you in college had to buy books you never opened for 100's of dollars only to sell them back to the bookstore by the pound the next year. That used to make mad as hrell!

Middleman522 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Toda I'm talking US! The voucher program will help get rid of slack teachers, and their agenda. You missed my point!

Toda 2 months, 2 weeks ago

dentman65 => good observation ... I learned early on no to buy new or used books from college bookstores. It's a monopoly where they change text every two years and your "investment" is worthless unless you want to use them to impress or collect dust.

Most were out dated material so professors would provide "additional links" for research. Anyone who plans on attending college should investigate rental on-line. I've spent as much for five texts as it would cost to purchase one. Some good sites out there if one knows where to look.

Middleman522 2 months, 2 weeks ago

First JimRussell is never right, and you might know a true progressive was hiding behind this letter.

Toda 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Middleman522 => like most of us here in NC are only concerned with NC Legislation:

You might find this link interesting or helpful ....

teufelhunden 2 months, 2 weeks ago

wdd101st-You hit the nail smack dab on the head about 11 hrs ago.

teufelhunden 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Let's face it. Our country has suffered serious harm by these so called progressives. How can anyone in their right mind be proud of that? I just shake my head in disgust.

teufelhunden 2 months, 2 weeks ago

They have access to money but choose to drain our citizens because heck, why worry.

JimRussell44 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Jim Alley 522: "JimRussell is never right". This is possibly the closest thing to accurate you have said so far. I'm certainly not "right", I think I'm more in the center.

JimRussell44 2 months, 2 weeks ago

wdd101st: Sorry my reading comprehension is better than yours. It must be that darn liberal public education I received in high school.

JimRussell44 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Geoff Cutler, I know very well what I'm talking about. It's you that doesn't know what I'm talking about. But what else is new?

fugitiveguy 2 months, 2 weeks ago

"I think I'm more in the center."

THAT is a good one!

JimHeim 2 months, 2 weeks ago

It never ceases to amaze me that the twenty-year-old Agenda 21, the non-binding UN resolution supporting sustainability, can still get conservatives' panties in a Gordian knot. What part of non-binding do they not understand.

I saw a bumper stick on a teabaggers car last fall that said, 'Sustainable Growth is the New Communism.' Someone needs to go to the clue store and make a major purchase.

North Carolina teachers are 46th in the nation for pay. That's pathetic, and conservatives think they're swimming in cash.

In Louisiana you can use vouchers to send your kids to charter schools that teach that the KKK was a force for good in society and dinosaurs and humans lived together. Apparently stupidity is an inexhaustible resource. What a shame it generates no energy.

Toda 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Themis 20 hours, 43 minutes ago Moore County Schools has more pork spending than Washington!

Themis one might add MoF to that statement. When they are long gone, the historical ramifications will be more than most can stand when they open their tax bills.

The tax office has embarked on Creative Accounting when it comes to "value" of property and autos. Geeezzz

geoffcutler 2 months, 2 weeks ago

JER, when you say: "Kittyliss and Geoff Cutler have a problem sharing earth with the rest of its inhabitants. To them, the United Nations is a subversive plot to strip them of their rightful place as lord and master over everything and everybody...," you have no idea what you're talking about.

JimRussell44 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Not so fast there, Geoffy boy. Kittyliss stated that "Liberals and their devotion to Agenda 21 have invaded our schools. Your best answer is to home school before your children are indoctrinated into the "progressive" agenda which is presently being drilled into them in the public school system. It is not public education anymore....it is public indoctrination of the undereducated." To this, you advise Kittyliss that "you raise a valid point on public education". I may be wrong, but that sounds like you agree with the comments made. From this, I can conclude that the two of you are on the same page and both believe that the non-binding Agenda 21 is a threat to you. Based on all the body of your pronouncements made in your writings, I conclude that you are in favor of the USA dictating to others but are opposed to having others even suggest things we could do to make the world a better place. Please point out where I'm wrong and give backup data to support your claims.

fugitiveguy 2 months, 2 weeks ago

School Kids Taught to Praise Obama by Concern4US

Indoctrination?!!! Now thats just crazy talk! Thats what that is!

geoffcutler 2 months, 2 weeks ago

No, JERee boy, I don't think I will.

The_AnonymusProfit 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Some clarifications on Public Education

The Public Education system as we now it did not happen until the presidency of Woodrow Wilson, Up until this time education was private and though Private schooling has become synonymous with many things(mostly bad and untrue) during the time before Woodrow Wilson a large majority of Americans went(this squashes the idea that only a select group can go or went to private schools)
The Public School system proposal by Woodrow Wilson created what we now call Federal Income Tax, this tax was created to pay for "Public Schools" and was never to be raised higher then 3%
Woodrow wilson did not create the public education system for the purpose of educating the public, his disdain for the catholic church and parochial schools(the place were until then most children were educated) was well known and his creation of the school system was meant to deal a blow to what he perceived as Catholic Power.
Budgetary issues real and imaginary have plauged the school battle since I can remember. While it could be argued that public schools do not receive enough funding, in a recent study of the NC primary and secondary budgets it was concluded that at least 8% of the budget was spent on things that have absolutley no relevence to education. This is a large amount of money.

On the flip side 1. We pay our teachers in North Carolina almost nothing, there is no monitary reward for teaching in North Carolina, so while we can all dream about how teachers "do it cause they want to" the fact is until we raise teachers salaries were not going to get the quality of teachers we want. 2. While it is true that we rank in the high teens to low thirties in many of the "core" areas of education in worldwide ranking, something that is never discussed is the fact that the United States is one of the few countries that educates ALL of its citizens. The average that is taken not only includes the smarties(of which the US produces more every year then most developed nations combined) it also includes the mentally handicapped and disabled, if you were to remove anyone who had an IQ of less then 70 the US would be number 1 in every quantifiable category. I am proud we teach every one. 3. The best case to be made is that we can not succeed as a country without a solid education system. While I am a firm believer in the fact that the Department of Education should be disbanded and education left to the states, I certainly support a public education system.

There are pluses and minuses to both sides, however vouchers are not the Evil thing that the writer of this letter makes them out to be. The fact is that Private schools generally offer a better overall education because they have to compete. The free market system is a wonderful thing, I don't see anything wrong with public taxpayer money paying for private school vouchers, the only condition being that the school is not parochial.

JimRussell44 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Geoff Cutler, won't point out where I'm wrong....or can't?

geoffcutler 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Doesn't care to converse with insulting pedants who will not stay out of others personal lives on this website..

OldSpook 2 months, 2 weeks ago

TAP, Thanks for returning to the topic vice the continued finger pointing. Although I do not agree with you 100%, I believe your writing is more accurate and presents a less biased opinion. One area I will disagree with you about is on parochial schools. While I do not endorse parochial schools, if a parent who does (and pays their taxes) want to use their voucher at one of these schools why shouldn't they be allowed their choice?

Middleman522 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Russell, you nor Bouser can even see the Middle, you're so far left. That's why we sound crazy to you. You progressives crashed through the left ditch years ago and have not been seen since, by the Middle. None of you horse s.... surprises me now that I see you think you're Middle. And Bouser's hero Clinton is respectable, too! And folks wonder how this country got so divided. The fact that you get excited by getting personal with your insults on here, says a lot about your lack of character. Quite typical of loud liberals!

The_AnonymusProfit 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Oldspook my only concern with the parochial schools is that i see a case for violation of separation of church and state.

JimRussell44 2 months, 2 weeks ago

No problem, Geoff. You'll not hear from me again until you show yourself to be the hypocrite you are. For the record, I would call your use of the term "sweetheart" when referring to clarabelle to be both insulting and personal.

JimRussell44 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Jim Alley 522, or it could be that you are so far to the right that you could not see the middle with the Hubble telescope. Let's see what you think of these opinions: I believe that we have created a welfare state that has become a way of life for a portion of our population. I believe that anyone receiving government assistance needs to contribute something in return for it. I believe that all corporate subsidies need to stop today. I believe that anyone entering this country illegally needs to be rounded up and barred from ever being allowed to legally enter this country. I believe children who are born in this country of parents who are not citizens of the USA are not, themselves US citizens just because they happened to be born here. I believe we are way too soft on crime and criminals. I think all laws must be enforced to the maximum degree. If you disagree, work toward changing the laws, not ignoring them. I believe in capital punishment carried out in a very timely manner. I would support having a TV channel that carried every execution live. I think schools should be run with military precision and students should all be required to wear uniforms. Our school systems should educate students with facts. Beliefs should be taught in churches. I've got a lot more I could post, but this will give you an idea of where I stand on some of the issues. Are they far left? Far right? Or closer to the middle?

Middleman522 2 months, 2 weeks ago

Most of that is common sense and that's totally lost with government these days. There was only one thing on your list that I don't agree with, and that's what I call a falsely divided country. Divided by politicians to win elections. People in this country get excited about the wrong things and want to fight about them. We should be talking just like this. The problems that we both have are lobbyists and a lack of term limits. Thanks for the info!!

dentman65 2 months, 2 weeks ago

JimRussell - I think you have sent some insults my way in the past but I am not sure. I never returned the favor if you did. But I have to say I can agree with most of what you say. I especially like the capital punishment being carried out asap after conviction. I also know for a fact that probably 1/2 the people on welfare have no business being there.......and the other half probably need much more help then they are getting. I can say that from personal experience with my brother-n-law having been paralyzed from the neck down in an accident on the weekend 10 years ago. You'd be shocked at what they have been through after 40 years of being productive tax payers and pretty much forgotten by the system after the life changing injury. But I do agree that if you are physically able, you should contribute to the system. You and I are in total agreement on the alien problem. Has anyone read about those "birthing" houses where they come to stay in this country just to deliver a child.

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Clamp a Damper On Voucher Idea

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