Pray for Andrew

The_AnonymusProfit 7 months, 1 week ago

Bob andrew is an intelligent person witb his own views which are grounded in his beleifs. We can ask no more of anyone

Courseaire 7 months, 1 week ago

I pray for: - All things bright and beautiful, - All creatures great and small, - All things wise and wonderful, - The Lord God made them all.

packwilleat 7 months, 1 week ago

I wonder how many mass murders and genocides have been committed in the name of "atheism"??

coffecreme 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew doesn't need your prayers.... he is just great with out them.

JimHeim 7 months, 1 week ago

How nice that Bob has time in his life for such hate.

Speaking of Sharia, I notice a Southern Republican candidate is advocating that we execute unruly children as specified in Deuteronomy (you know, stoning to death in the town square). I assume that all practicing Christians approve since it's in the Good Book, just as some Muslims advocate death for similar infractions.

Spare the lethal injection and spoil the child, right?

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

This letter is hilarious! I love how he tacitly assumes that because the Bible contain certain moral principles, those principles must necessarily have come from the Bible. After all, it's not as if the Bible contains any ideas from other religions or cultures, right?

Let's make one thing very clear: prohibitions against murder, theft, and adultery exist in virtually all societies, cultures, and religions. The Jews were not the first people to say that murder was wrong (and indeed, if you believe the Old Testament, it wasn't clear that the Jews even did think murder was wrong, at least when it came to non-Jews).

Nor does morality require a belief in god. Morality can be constructed from logical principles based on the universality of behaviour (namely, can my actions be applied as universal principles?).

Most atheists do follow secular moral codes, though we disagree on exactly which codes to follow and on why they're important. Taken as a whole, we're no more or less moral than religious people. And when was the last time you saw an atheist fly a plane into the World Trade Centre?

Finally, the author's equating same-sex marriage to adultery is utterly absurd. They have nothing in common. Adultery is wrong not because it is sex outside of "traditional marriage," but because it is a violation of trust. Marriage is a promise to be faithful to another person; if I cheat on my spouse, I have violated a promise that I have made. Same-sex marriage, on the other hand, does not violate trust; indeed, it is an attempt to allow same-sex couples to make these promises to each other without legal punishment.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

One more thing: I noticed while responding to this that the Ten Commandments say nothing about rape. There are other passages in scripture that (sort of) condemn rape, but apparently it wasn't important enough to make it onto the Ten. If we take scripture at face value, it is more serious to lie, steal, dishonour your parents, or cheat on your spouse than to violently force someone to have sex with you.

What a wonderful moral code we have here, eh?

nothingspecial 7 months, 1 week ago

It's a crap letter that is true, and packwilleat, I guess you're referring to the works of Mao, Stalin and Hitler. I'm with AP about Andrew. But of course the Marriage Amendment columns are way past tedious.

packwilleat 7 months, 1 week ago

Lenin was the only open Athiest. The rest knew, in order to domonate every aspect of the lives of their people, the church had to be dethroned. Then the people must be demoralized to the point that the are to put all faith into the state and its leaders. Hitler was an open Christian till the day he died. He needed the blind faith of the Christians in order to commit genocide upon the Jews. It is amazing what man is able to believe and put faith into. If I were to give you a hundered years to come up with an idea on how to control peoples hearts and minds...... I'd bet my bottom dollar, it would either be the state or religion.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@nothingspecial:

Where on earth do you get this idea that Hitler was an atheist? Hitler justified his actions partially as a crusade against atheism. He saw atheism as connected to Communism, and sought to eradicate both of them.

Here's a quote from his speech in Berlin in 1933: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

The notion that Hitler was an atheist is completely nonsensical. It's like arguing that Osama bin Ladin was a fan of capitalism and Western culture; how can anyone possibly take it seriously?

Of course, Mao and Stalin were both atheists who killed millions of people, but so what? There have been people of all religions, ideologies, and belief systems who have killed millions of people. Mass murderers have been Christians, Jews, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, or pagans. Historically speaking, one's faith or lack thereof has very little to do with one's moral character.

We must judge Christianity on the basis of whether it is correct or incorrect, not on whether it produced more mass murderers than atheism.

packwilleat 7 months, 1 week ago

See, I am of the other "A" word. The one that believes man will never truly be free as long as the state or the church exist. I believe in freedom, but not stongly enough to want it forced upon anyone. ;-)

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@packwilleat:

Well said!

nothingspecial 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew you're the one saying we must judge or compare Christianity or other faiths such as atheism in that way, not me.

geoffcutler 7 months, 1 week ago

"We must judge Christianity on the basis of whether it is correct or incorrect..." Andrew

My goodness! That's quite a tall order! Correct or incorrect? Not just faith for some and not others? I had no idea such a judgement could be made...until now.

Thatcher 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew-- I believe Christianity is correct. I do not force my beliefs upon anyone. Cheers!

Hembloche 7 months, 1 week ago

Geoff - I would venture a guess that you have faith in Christianity because you judge it to be correct? Similarly, I choose not to believe because, in my opinion, it's incorrect. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what Andrew was saying, but that's the way I saw it.

geoffcutler 7 months, 1 week ago

Hembloche, I wouldn't presume to know whether it is correct or incorrect. My faith, such as it is, is not for others to judge. I haven't been inside a church outside a wedding or funeral in 30 years, if you must know. My thrust is that our young friend's, (intelligent as he is,) hubris walks ten shadows down the lane in front of him.

JustThinking 7 months, 1 week ago

DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL, ANDREW......DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL

JD 7 months, 1 week ago

wow...just wow

hope this doesn't get locked for awhile

make it a good show by JD

nothingspecial 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew, you're a smart guy who wants to get at the truth of everything. To do a thorough study of Christianity (or other religions) and this God question it is going to be necessary for you to do more study. For instance, there are almost a billion people who call themselves Christians, of which even if some call 99% of them deluded by a fantasy there are still a great many who are smarter or at least as smart as anyone you know, that strongly believe in a God and in their Christian faith.

I'd recommend you study some of the reasons there is such a strong Christian faith in the world and study ALL of the arguments for faith in God or disputing Atheism so that you are truly grounded from a solid, objective study of the question. Right here on FM 88.7 there is Frank Tureck's show that is also on the web at: http://www.crossexamined.org. If you go to the bottom of that website there are links to debates between Frank Tureck and Christopher Hitchens for instance.

JustThinking 7 months, 1 week ago

ANDREW......I SUGGEST YOU READ YOUR CATECHISM BOY!!!!!

The_AnonymusProfit 7 months, 1 week ago

Here is the problem with Atheism VS Religion, It is more or less always placed upon the devout to prove the existence of their deity, should it not be equal or if not reverse in this aspect? Since man first stepped out of the trees in the dark regions of Africa we have believed in a Higher power.

Some have said that this is a built in survival reflex dealing with the main difference between humans and all other animals, the understanding that we will at some point die. Perhaps though there is more to it then that. Given all the recent scientific discoveries that show an abundance of grand order that once appeared to be chaos, is it not as plausible to think that and pursue a pattern of thought that allows for a creator or creators if you so choose?

The burden of proof should not be set squarely upon the shoulders of religious scholars and thinkers. To say at this point in our evolution as a race that we can categorically deny the existence of GOD is as absurd a claim as to say that at this point we can prove that Aliens exist. We can do neither at this time, yet my feeling is that both GOD and aliens exist.

I choose to follow the teachings of Christ. He has made me a better person and given me inner peace. When I die, and I pray that that will not happen anytime soon it is my belief that I will be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven, however if this is not the case I have not lost anything, yet should I choose against, and in death find out I am wrong, I do not want to fathom the consequences.

Again Andrew is an intelligent young man, any of you at that age were just as sure in your beliefs, some may have changed some may have not, the advantage of youth that both Andrew AND I share is that we still have time to learn, objectify, change, and reshape our ideology,

Maybe before you down Andrew, sit down and have a chat with him as I have, you will find that you leave the discussion more knowledgeable then when you first sat down.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@nothingspecial:

"you're the one saying we must judge or compare Christianity or other faiths such as atheism in that way"

When? When did I ever say anything like this? My column said that Christianity should not be imposed on anyone, and in these comments I said that Christianity is incorrect. I never once said that Christianity, or any religion for that matter, should be condemned because of anything individual Christians said.

"I'd recommend you study some of the reasons there is such a strong Christian faith in the world and study ALL of the arguments for faith in God or disputing Atheism" I have, actually, and I find them fallacious. Virtually every argument for the existence of god says, in some form or other, "we don't know how certain things are real, therefore god must have created them." The fallacy, of course, is to assume that because we can't currently explain something, it must necessarily have come from god. It's far more likely that there's a rational explanation that we just haven't found yet.

I rejected Christianity and became an atheist because I looked at the arguments and evidence and found that it is very unlikely that anything remotely resembling a god (or gods, for that matter) exists. Now, I could certainly be wrong about this; perhaps there's some argument or piece of evidence that I haven't yet encountered that proves there is a god. But I can't base my opinions on the fact that I might later turn out to be wrong. All I can do, all anyone can do, is to base my opinions on what I know now.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@nothingspecial:

By the way, you have a lot of nerve to tell me to do more research. Your comments about Hitler demonstrate that you haven't done any research into his beliefs, and probably don't even know the basics of his ideology. The notion that Hitler was an atheist is patently absurd; no one who values research would ever make such a claim.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@The_AnonymousProfit:

Thank you for your kind words; I thoroughly enjoy our discussions, and have gained much knowledge from you in turn.

I am going to disagree with your point that the burden of proof shouldn't be placed on the religious. Yes, human beings have more or less always believed in some higher power, but the nature of that higher power has changed wildly over time. Some have believed in many gods; some in only one. Some believe their gods are moral; others (such as the ancient Greeks) did not associate their gods with morality. Some believed their gods were all powerful; others believed their gods' powers were quite limited.

Humans have not always believed in any particular god; thus anyone claiming that any particular god exists should have to back it up.

Now, that doesn't mean that all religious people have to have a complex argument for their faith. If it's something you personally and privately believe, you needn't give an account to anyone; it's your right to believe whatever you want. If, however, your belief ceases to be personal, and you try to convert others to it, you should be expected to back it up.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@JustThinking:

"DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL, ANDREW......DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL"

It's not dark in here at all. The lighting is actually quite nice; you should come join me!

"I SUGGEST YOU READ YOUR CATECHISM BOY!"

Rotflmao I have; it's a really terrible book. It has lots of big words and very little underlying meaning.

Btw, you may want to get your keyboard checked out; it seems that your cap-lock key is stuck.

Thatcher 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew-- You'd better be doing well in school! Ha Ha! As you know, I am a Christian. If you have the time, and are interested, I'd love to chat with you during your next break. Some things are not expressed well on newspaper blogs, and arguments on these threads tend to get ugly fast. Sad to see. Let me know. Cheers!

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@geoffcutler:

It's my belief that you can determine, through logical arguments and an examination of the evidence, that deities almost certainly don't exist, or at least don't care about what happens in this world. I'm certainly not the first one to argue this; Epicurus was saying it 2,300 years ago.

"My thrust is that our young friend's hubris walks ten shadows down the lane in front of him."

There you go again with this accusation that I'm arrogant. You've never explained why you think this. Certainly I don't claim to be particularly humble, but what have I written that is any more arrogant than your columns?

I use my columns and this forum to express my opinions, just as you do. What makes me any more arrogant than you?

geoffcutler 7 months, 1 week ago

Oh, I don't know...are you even legal yet? Look, Andrew, like I said, you're one intelligent person, no doubt, But when you wade into issues like the existence of God, or not, you're hefting questions I'm afraid no-one has the corner on. Therefore, while you could be exactly right, there is no "god" (I couldn't help but notice you refrained from using a capital (G),) you could not even with all the rational arguments in the world, prove it. So your certainty then of that rightness, and others wrongness is off-putting. Better to question and doubt from your atheist stance than tell all those who have faith,that they are wrong.

The_AnonymusProfit 7 months, 1 week ago

Most arguments made against the existence of God seem to me to only prove the existence of God.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@geoffcutler:

"Are you even legal yet?"

What's that got to do with it? Yes, I'm young; is it "arrogant" for youth to express their opinions? At what age is it okay for a writer to express her or his opinions?

"While you could be exactly right, there is no 'god,'... you could not even with all the rational arguments in the world, prove it."

This has nothing whatsoever to do with hubris; it is simply an issue wherein you and I disagree. I think the logic and evidence are pretty clear in showing that there isn't a God (I capitalized it; are you happy?). You may disagree with me on this, but the fact that we have a disagreement does not make me arrogant.. Indeed, it is far more arrogant for you to tell me what I should and should not write than for me to write with conviction.

fugitiveguy 7 months, 1 week ago

The part about being a "proud" athiest and being glad to live in a universe where such a being doesnt exist seemed a bit arrogant to me. It doesn't seem like something to be proud of or ashamed of. Its just the way you are. I wonder what was the purpose of the column in the first place.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@fugitiveman:

Considering that our society constantly impugns atheists, portraying us as immoral and pitiable (the letter above does exactly that), taking pride is absolutely necessary. One can take pride in resisting unwarranted social stigma, and should.

"I wonder what was the purpose of the column in the first place."

The purpose of the column was very clear: religion should not be given public sanction. What is so confusing about that?

fugitiveguy 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew, serious question and personal. Have you ever been bothered with anxiety regarding the possibility of hell and the mind bending concept of spending eternity there. Personally I am not thrilled with the prospect of eternity anywhere.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@fugitiveguy:

I don't see how this is relevant to the debate. We've all been arguing over whether religion should receive public sanction (and, apparently, over whether my columns are "arrogant"); what does hell have to do with that?

fugitiveguy 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew, my view is that any so called "public sanction" is so small as to be insignificant. IMO to indicate otherwise is making a mountain of a molehill.

fugitiveguy 7 months, 1 week ago

I am trying to understand why a person of your age would feel the need to take on such a heavy issue. Trying to get inside your head as to your motivation. I am in no way trying to be insulting, there is no reason for me to be. As far as you being percieved as arrogant, think of this. In your column whether or not it was your intention (I think not) it may be percieved by believers that you have taken a dump on their religion. Their reaction was predictable.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@fugitiveguy:

Yeah, because imposing higher taxes on thousands (millions?) of couples just because they don't conform to the Judeo-Christian model of marriage is definitely insignificant.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@fugitiveguy:

"Trying to get inside your head as to your motivation."

My motivation is perfectly clear: to speak against public sanction for religion. That's all there is too it.

"it may be percieved by believers that you have taken a dump on their religion"

I took a dump on their religion by expressing that I don't believe in it and that I don't want my money to enforce it?

I said nothing negative about Christianity except that I don't believe in it, don't want to believe in it, and don't want to pay my money to it. If that's "taking a dump" on Christianity, then respecting it is completely untenable.

Does the principle work in reverse? Like, if someone rights a column that says "I am a Christian, and a proud one at that; I wouldn't want to live in a universe without God," should I be offended by it?

fugitiveguy 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew, what was the reasoning behind the gov't giving tax advantages to married couples?

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@fugitiveguy:

To win the votes of married couples and of "traditional marriage" supporters; same reason the government does anything.

fugitiveguy 7 months, 1 week ago

Perhaps, I think it was to encourage people to get married and make future taxpayers, something same sex couples cannot do regardless of what one thinks of their life choice.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@fugitiveguy:

If that were the case, the government would reward people for having children, not just for getting married. The tax benefits don't distinguish between couples with children and couples without (or between couples that treat their children well and couples who don't). It's highly unlikely that that has anything to do with "raising future taxpayers."

The_AnonymusProfit 7 months, 1 week ago

Actually based on the current hodgepodge tax system Andrew a Married couple filing jointly with 2 children will get more of a tax credit then a single head of household making the same money declaring 2 children. Don't ask me why.

fugitiveguy 7 months, 1 week ago

Actually, the gov't does reward taxpayers for having children. Of course the cost of caring for a child exceeds the tax savings but it is a benefit none the less.

The_AnonymusProfit 7 months, 1 week ago

me and my wife pay 0 federal income tax after refunds. This is thanks to the Child Tax Credit, Earned Income Tax Credit and a few other deductions, we usually get about 1/3 of our state income tax back.

fugitiveguy 7 months, 1 week ago

I personally would favor a flat tax or "The Fair Tax". There is no reason to continue with our antiquated system with thousands of pages of tax rules requiring billions spent annually on adhering to it. Andrew, perhaps you might consider that for a future column.

geoffcutler 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew, You've got ears, but you don't hear very well. Have a good night!

The_AnonymusProfit 7 months, 1 week ago

Fugitive, how about we just have like a few taxes, import tax, sales tax, and ill let ya keep the sin tax for state governments, that should be enough to fund military spending, pay congress, keep the lights on in the white house, pave the interstates, and, and, o wait thats all the government is allowed to do, everything else is unconstitutional.

nothingspecial 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew I repeat my point - the claims you make as to why you are thoroughly convinced about atheism and need no more study of the subject actually reveal you have alot more to learn. And make no mistake, Geoff has you pegged whether you realize it or not. Wisdom, my boy, that is the elusive goal, the eventual prize you will gain with years and experience not study, to find the true answers that you seek.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@fugitiveguy:

Yes, but the point is that tax benefits for married couples themselves have nothing to do with encouraging people to raise children, because being married is not the same as raising children. It does not make sense to deprive same-sex couples of the same rights and privileges as heterosexual couples; raising children has nothing to do with it. It is a form of religious bigotry.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@geoffcutler:

"You've got ears, but you don't hear very well. Have a good night!"

Thank you for giving me such useful advice! I love how whenever I call you out on your "hubris" canard, you just retreat to these meaningless cliches.

How about this: why don't you stop strawmaning me? Your criticizing my "hubris" has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand. I could be the most arrogant person in the world and still happen to be right about all this. If you have a problem with the logic of my arguments or the evidence I use, point it out, but simply claiming that I'm arrogant over and over does nothing to further the conversation.

Attack my arguments, not strawmen.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@nothingspecial:

"the claims you make as to why you are thoroughly convinced about atheism and need no more study of the subject actually reveal you have alot more to learn"

Again, when did I say anything at all like this? I said that I've looked at the arguments and don't find them convincing, not that I have no more research to do. You need to stop putting words in my mouth.

Geoff has not "pegged" me on anything. He accuses me of hubris because he is either unable or unwilling to respond to my arguments, and isn't humble enough to simply drop out of the debate. I have been no more arrogant in this debate than anyone else; Geoff's claims about my hubris are utterly specious.

"Wisdom, my boy, that is the elusive goal, the eventual prize you will gain with years and experience"

And there is the other canard: that I'm wrong because I'm young. It is a pure ad hominem attack. Let's be clear: I could be the youngest, most naive person in the world and still happen to be right about all this. Attack my arguments, not my age.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@nothingspecial:

I notice that you again completely ignore the fact that you have yourself done no research. Again, anyone claiming that Hitler was an atheist clearly holds research in contempt.

Like Geoff, when you encounter an argument you cannot handle, you ignore it and resort to strawmen and ad hominem attacks. We can never have a serious debate unless you can focus on the actual issues at hand.

fugitiveguy 7 months, 1 week ago

"Yes, but the point is that tax benefits for married couples themselves have nothing to do with encouraging people to raise children, because being married is not the same as raising children."

I think they do. I suspect when these laws were enacted getting married and having children was what people did. 3,4,7,8 children. Now its the me generation and having children is getting less and less of a priority. Of course this is another concern as Americans die off faster than they are being born. Hey, theres another idea for a future column.

geoffcutler 7 months, 1 week ago

"And there is the other canard: that I'm wrong because I'm young. It is a pure ad hominem attack. Let's be clear: I could be the youngest, most naive person in the world and still happen to be right about all this. Attack my arguments, not my age." Andrew

Andrew, no-one is saying that you are wrong because you're young. In fact, if you read the points I've made to you since after your column, you'll see I don't necessarily think you are wrong.

"Like Geoff, when you encounter an argument you cannot handle, you ignore it and resort to strawmen and ad hominem attacks. We can never have a serious debate unless you can focus on the actual issues at hand." Andrew

I'm quite sure I would struggle with the argument. I've been struggling with it all my life, and still find the existence or not of God to be mysterious. But my points with you have never been with your arguments. They've been with how you make them. And that, I'm afraid, is where the youth issue comes into play.

MikeNC 7 months, 1 week ago

I have wondered this, Andrew: May I ask what religion or faith base you were before becoming an atheist? And if by chance, it was a matter of religion being rammed down your throat, or perhaps a pastor, or someone deceived you? Or something profound in your early life, made you decide a God does not exist? I will say this: I don't think the letter to the editor, here, should of ever been published, but it's here, you responded and the questions I asked, came mind. PS. Geoff does make a point that is not meant to be demeaning or insensitive toward you. Life is a never ending learning process. The only time we screw up, is when we stop listening and learning from our life's journey. We were all your age once, full of spunk and "we own the world" ideology, and we were going to live forever and ever. Like Moonchild, I was huge part of the social revolution of the 60s. Boy,I thought I knew it all and the old fogies were idiots and has beens. Today, I realize, I was the idiot. Diane

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@fugitiveguy:

"I think they do." etc.

I'm sorry, but I cannot accept this. The tax benefits that exist for married couples with children make sense from this perspective; the benefits that exist just for married couples do not. There's no need to encourage heterosexual marriage by itself; the fact that the government does it indicates that it is bigoted against homosexuals.

"this is another concern as Americans die off faster than they are being born"

Luckily, this isn't a problem because illegal immigration to the US cancels out the deficit in births. This is yet another reason that we need to encourage immigration, not crack down on those who come over illegally. Only if the "secure the border" crowd gets its way will we have to worry about a shrinking population.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@geoffcutler:

My age should be a non-issue; it has absolutely nothing to do with what we're discussing. Bringing it up at all is a waste of time. Why not just ignore it?

"my points with you have never been with your arguments. They've been with how you make them"

You've yet to say anything about how I make my arguments. Indeed, you've yet to say anything substantive at all. All you do is complain vaguely about my "hubris." When I ask you how I'm being arrogant, you don't explain it to me; you simply retreat to these meaningless trite phrases like "you've got ears but don't hear very well."

"And that, I'm afraid, is where the youth issue comes into play."

Once again, what does this have to do with anything? Are you saying I'm arrogant just because I'm young? At what age is it acceptable for a writer to express her or his opinions? I feel like you've memorized a script that says "Andrew is young; Andrew is arrogant," and can do no more than repeat it over and over without explaining anything.

I ask you, once and for all, to explain to me how I'm being arrogant. If you cannot do this, kindly stop wasting everyone's time.

ninesyspup 7 months, 1 week ago

@ Andrew

True Christianity cannot be imposed, it comes through Faith.

Luby Hester

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@MikeNC:

Again, I don't see the relevance in this question. The point is to debate whether religion should receive public sanction, not for me to tell you my life story.

"Geoff does make a point that is not meant to be demeaning or insensitive toward you" etc.

Geoff has not made any points, actually. All Geoff does is accuse me of hubris over and over without ever explaining how I am being arrogant. It's not a lesson; it's trolling.

Geoff's statements are demeaning because they assume I have so little conviction that I'll back down at the first at hominem. I'm interested in learning the truth, not reading synonyms for "arrogance."

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@ninesyspup:

Then that's all the more reason for the government to not sanction Christianity.

geoffcutler 7 months, 1 week ago

I have explained it, Andrew. It's just that you can't hear it. So I'll stop wasting everyone's time.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@geoffcutler:

You've explained nothing. The most you've said is that because I make my points about atheism with conviction, I must be drowning in arrogance. You, of course, make points with conviction all the time, but apparently that has nothing to do with it.

"I'll stop wasting everyone's time."

Yes, please do. And while you're at it, you might want to learnt he difference between an actual argument and an ad hominem attack. One furthers the discussion; the other is just noise.

ninesyspup 7 months, 1 week ago

@ Andrew

I would rather live my life having Faith in God and find out there is no God, than live as there is no God and find God does exist.

Luby Hester

coffecreme 7 months, 1 week ago

@ Andrew ... I think you are great!

warbirdlover 7 months, 1 week ago

Way to go Andrew!!! The problem I see is that a bunch of over the hill Bible Thumpers are scared stiff of the younger generation leaving religion in droves, thus weakening their power base. Their bigoted idealism, religated to the pages of History Books, where it belongs. I just turned 50 years old, andnso glad we have young people like yourself, whom think for themselves, instead of perpetrate, the intolerance of past generations. You will have hard battles ahead of you, but Keep true to yourself and everything will alright.

packwilleat 7 months, 1 week ago

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca

That's pretty much how it works. What better way to control the masses? To say that something is against God's will and threaten with eternal damnation. Our constitution has become nothing more than a book cover for the bible.

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@ninesyspup:

What if you live your life believing in the Judeo-Christian God, but find out that a different god (Ba'al, for example), exists?

@coffeecreme and @warbirdlover:

Thank you both!

AndrewSoboeiro 7 months, 1 week ago

@packwilleat:

As always, you are spot on!

You mentioned you're familiar with Stefan Molyneux. Have you heard his podcast "The State and God?" It's really good. It talks about how religion and statism are both rooted in the same tyrannical idea: namely, that one should threaten people with violence to get things done.

packwilleat 7 months, 1 week ago

@Andrew:

I have. I've been through and exhausted all the channels of Libertarian/Voluntarist train of thought. I have also said that I have retired from continuing to voice and promote such ideas. It is my strong belief that we will only be as free as our neigbors alow us to be(socially & fiscally). The masses are to eager too hide behind the gun of the state or the doctrines of their faith in order to enforce their ideals on others. No one seems to believe in freedom these days or even how to define it. If you haven't, take the time to read Walden by Thoreau.

Thatcher 7 months, 1 week ago

Andrew-- As I've said before, you are a bright young man who will do well. As a conservative, and as a Christian, I wish you nothing but the best. Cheers!

JD 7 months, 1 week ago

by JD

The_AnonymusProfit 7 months, 1 week ago

How about Pray for Puss?

fugitiveguy 7 months, 1 week ago

"The problem I see is that a bunch of over the hill Bible Thumpers are scared stiff of the younger generation leaving religion in droves, thus weakening their power base"

false, havent been in a church in a couple of years, i think Geoff has indicated similar.

ninesyspup 7 months, 1 week ago

Last post applies.

Luby Hester

Courseaire 7 months, 1 week ago

"In the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And an outstanding reason for choosing some sort of God or spiritual-type thing to worship — is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things — if they are where you tap real meaning in life — then you will never have enough. Never feel you have enough. It’s the truth. Worship your own body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly, and when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally plant you. On one level, we all know this stuff already — the trick is keeping the truth up-front in daily consciousness. Worship power — you will feel weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to keep the fear at bay. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart — you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. And so on." - David Foster Wallace

packwilleat 7 months, 1 week ago

I worship freedom. Both physical and mental.

Mythreekids 7 months, 1 week ago

Religion. Much like "To be or not to be." In my opinion, it is personal and has to be answered, interpreted, accepted, rejected, etc. on a personal level. The most important thing to remember is that others are 'free' to choose. We will never all agree on 'what is'. What we must all accept is the individual right to choose one's path. I may not agree with Andrew's view but I do respect his right to express his view. I do not think that religion of any form can be, neither should it be legislated by government. It is and should remain...personal. I belive in God and see no need to justify it. I believe the greatest commandment was ..".Love one another as I have loved you". I also believe that if I practice this commandment in my life I will treat others better. But, again, this is personal choice and cannot be mandated. Love cannot be forced. It is patient, kind, longsuffering. etc. Thanks, Andrew, for sharing your views. As you grow older and your experiences change, perhaps so will your views. In the meantime, I will offer you the respect you deserve and that I desire.

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Pray for Andrew

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