Going Way Out on a Limbaugh
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A fortnight has gone by since Rush Limbaugh excoriated Sandra Fluke, an exceptionally well-spoken Georgetown University law student, for advocating insurance-subsidized birth control.
Limbaugh extrapolated this to assert that Ms. Fluke wanted to be "paid for having sex," which made her a "slut" - and worse, a "prostitute." Then he demanded she discharge her debt to the American public by taping her sexual encounters for creeps like him to ogle - a scene more inductive to vomiting than any emetic.
I have pondered Limbaugh's semantic obfuscations in the political context (let me know when the words get too big, Mr. L.) and offer these conclusions:
- If every consenting adult woman who has birth-controlled sex is a slut, then sluttiness is the norm, not the aberration. You, Mr. Limbaugh, have been married four times. Your latest, a little blonde hottie, looks about half your age. If, by the remotest possibility, you cohabited (I'm making this a verb because it sounds nicer than other choices) one of your wives premaritally, how should we call her? And if she accepted expensive gifts before, during or after said act, what then?
- Prostitute, the verb, currently describes the behavior of public servants who trade favors for access to private jets or island hideaways. Prostitute, the noun, is a man or woman who accepts payment, not necessarily money, in exchange for sex. Hmm. By Limbaugh's quid pro quo reasoning, that implies Ms. Fluke should be offering sexual favors to her health insurance carrier, one and/or all of its agents, in exchange for prophylaxis. Still, Mr. Limbaugh, you assume the general public deserves voyeur rights, even though Ms. Fluke has private insurance.
- As for government "health insurance": Medicare starts at 65. Bring on Viagra, not The Pill. Of course Medicaid and public health clinics shouldn't offer free birth control. Much cheaper to support crack babies, abused children and dysfunctional adults than dispense prevention according to the recipient's religious beliefs.
- Speaking of Viagra (which Republican presidential candidate Bob Dole did do eloquently, probably for a fee), this is reimbursed by many insurance plans because it addresses "a medical condition." Yeah, like pregnancy isn't. As the saying goes, if men gave birth, birth control devices would be thrown to the crowds like candies at a Mardi Gras parade.
- I strenuously object to your equating birth control with cheap, hedonistic sex. Is it OK for insurers to pay for tubal ligation when a future pregnancy might threaten the mother's health? The couple with genetic risk factors who choose to adopt? Loving parents unable to support another child? Who draws the line?
- I do not recall whether Rushie stands for or against privately funded birth control, but something's afoot, since he has no children (that we know about). Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
- Perhaps, Mr. Limbaugh, you did not intend for your remarks to escalate. But you warmed to the subject so nicely, almost as if you were visualizing, salivating over the very sluttiness of the proposed videos, like a guy in a porno movie booth. Indeed, your apology read, "I chose the wrong words in my analogy of the situation." Right. "Ho" would have been infinitely better. Or, for the Washington crowd, lady of the evening, working girl, escort, intern.
- Divergent yet germane: What shall we call a man who becomes addicted to prescription painkillers? A junkie? A user? Limbaugh was arrested for doctor-shopping to obtain his meds. He admitted to addiction. Charges were later dropped when he complied with recommendations and entered treatment. Did insurance reimburse any of the doctors who allegedly issued prescriptions? Would that (excellent, I'm sure) insurance be part of a benefits package through Limbaugh's employer? Show them the video! Put it on YouTube! Let's see Rushie higher than a kite!
- Oh, sure. Sarah Palin defended Limbaugh's First Amendment rights. Obviously, daughter Bristol's no pill-totin' slut/prostitute who demanded contraception from mom's insurance, likely through the state of Alaska. But I'll bet said insurance contributed to her prenatal care/delivery. Rick Santorum called Rush an "entertainer." Michele Bachmann referred to the "little pinprick issue." I think she meant his comments.
Personally, I think this is a case of the Rush calling the -kettle black - and only regretting it when his sponsor-johns yanked payment. Not to worry. Eventually little pinprick issues like Rush Limbaugh just shrivel up and blow away.
Contact Deborah Salomon at debsalomon@nc.rr.com.
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Comments
JER 1 year, 2 months ago
Yea Deb!!! You go girl!!! Let's drop the "pin" though.
Bigguy 1 year, 2 months ago
I hope Mr. Levy & Cutler read this! Great article.
ProudYankee 1 year, 2 months ago
Great column. It should get entertaining really soon, as the right wingers check in to defend their hero.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
Anyone who wonders where the Republican war on family planning is going should look at this bill submitted by a GOP Representative in Arizona:
Arizona House Bill 2625, authored by Majority Whip Debbie Lesko, R-Glendale, would permit employers to ask their employees for proof of medical prescription if they seek contraceptives for non-reproductive purposes, such as hormone control or acne treatment. “I believe we live in America. We don’t live in the Soviet Union,” Lesko said. “So, government should not be telling the organizations or mom and pop employers to do something against their moral beliefs.”
That's right. Now they want employers to be sure their workers don't buy contraceptives with their own money, because in America it's not the worker's money at all.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
It should get entertaining really soon, as the right wingers check in to defend their hero.
While claiming they're not. And note well: all the defenders are going to be clearly male, with perhaps one woman of (ahem) a certain age. Every woman I know under 45 is ticked off about this, and about the middle aged males rallying around their drug-addled idol.
Good column, Deb! This issue's not going to die, no matter how much the right wingers want to sweep it under the rug.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
JimHeim: In Wingnuttia, corporations are not only people, they're people with more rights than you.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
"Eventually little pinprick issues like Rush Limbaugh just shrivel up and blow away."
Then what would the left feign outrage over, oh theres always Fox News. Defend the comments, not me. However, I love to see the resident lefties get all ruffled up. BTW, did you guys lose any sleep over Bill Mahars similar comments regarding Palin a few years back, of course not.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
Of all the issues facing the country, why has Obama glommed on to this one. Of course this is a rhetorical question, its an election year and he is simply trying to lock up the fertile female vote, nothing more. The ever benevolent one once again is gifting a certain group in hopes of garnering votes. How much does a pack of bcp's cost anyway?
Arestorer 1 year, 2 months ago
The comments fit Sarah.....
Arestorer 1 year, 2 months ago
Deb, I Love you again....Sorry about both our Teams in the tourney..
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
fugitiveguy, the real question is why did the GOP provoke this fight? The president was only reacting to an attack on women's rights. Republicans should have stopped before they got farther behind.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
This is a clear illustration of the childlike behavior of the left. They don't have a lefty version of Rush. It galls them that a person whose ideology is completely different has such long term success. They would like to have a household name on the radio championing their liberal ideology but they just can't do it. Calling this woman a slut and a whore was absolutely wrong but it has given many a lefty something to write about. Its fading fast though.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
he is simply trying to lock up the fertile female vote, nothing more.
That's a big vote, fg. And that condescension and contempt you're showing towards them by putting it that way ? That's why you're going to lose that demographic. Please, continue. Keep alienating female voters right up to election day.
Its fading fast though.
Nope.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/03/rush-limbaughs-slut-comment-controversy-proves-it-has-staying-power/
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
They don't have a lefty version of Rush
I thought you people claim Bill Maher is the lefty version of Rush.
Y'all never can seem to get your stories straight.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
What I like to see is the controversy continuing and expanding. It's been two weeks and the uproar is not subsiding. I give a lot of credit to the president. It might have been a tempest in a teabag had he not phoned Ms Fluke. Once that happened, there was no going back.
Now that we have the Republicans in New Hanover County demanding that women quit having sex (unless to get pregnant), the hilarity will continue.
Great strategy GOPers.
native 1 year, 2 months ago
Good respectful letter. Each point is right on. No profanity or name calling. Some people will not understand this letter.
native 1 year, 2 months ago
Can someone tell me why the so called "Conservative Christians" would listen too and/or quote a character like Limbaugh and enhance his wealth and ratings.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
My guess is anyone of you chiming in on this has listened to more Rush over the past year than I have, believe it or not, I could care less. I just love to see the phony baloney hand wringing. BTW, how did Santorum do yesterday?
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
"And that condescension and contempt you're showing towards them by putting it that way ? "
No condescension implied or shown. You are simply doing that 60's dance craze "twist and spin"
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
"What I like to see is the controversy continuing and expanding."
I can think of 15 trillion reasons why you want this to continue.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
I heard Santorum was in an tight 3-way.
LeeMcGraw 1 year, 2 months ago
The difference between those who take extreme talk shows seriously and Municipal Bonds is that the bonds eventually mature. Don't transpose everything you hear to a political party and you will leave some open space in your mind.
justmyopinion 1 year, 2 months ago
Lee- LOL. I've given up Hope that some people on here will ever Change and mature.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
"extreme talk shows"
Translation:any talk show that espouses conservative views. Lower taxes, less government, empowering people to control their own destiny. Yes, I am starting to see what you mean.
debsalomon 1 year, 2 months ago
Let me clarify : In no way was I impuning Mr. Linbaugh's right to free speech. I rejoice that he expresses his opinions in colorful easy-to-comprehend phrases. Now, we know exactly what to fear from him and his defenders. But, in Rush's case, the First Amendment is a double-edged sword. Or, to use another cliche, give this man enough rope and he'll hang himself. Imagine what scalpers would get for those tickets. Only problem is....Rush Limbaugh has nine lives. So after stabbing and hanging, we can look forward to drowning, self-immolation, drug overdose, shooting by a gun-toting vigilante, food poisoning by bad chicken salad, strangling by an ex-wife ... and more, all figurative of course. Also, I'm flattered that a comment noted that no woman under 45 can stand Rush implying, perhaps, that older women share his views on this subject. Well, I'm a loud-mouthed 73 but, I confess, I wouldn't want my teenage grandsons shocked by Nanny's rant.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
"give this man enough rope and he'll hang himself"
Its good to have a dream.
justmyopinion 1 year, 2 months ago
Wow, you anti-rush folks are equally disgusting with your comments. I guess its OK since Rush's remarks came first. Right? Wishing death on someone? Your families must be really proud.
Lee, it didn't take long for someone to prove your point.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
I guess I just can't figure out why liberals aren't laughing just as hard as they were in Bill Maher's audience right after he said Sarah Palin was a "dumb t#*t." Strangest thing....
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
jmo, you should get out more. Giving one enough rope to hang himself has been in the language for centuries and is not to be taken literally by people with actual functioning brain cells.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
geoff, the law recognizes the difference between public persons and private ones. Running for federal office makes one a public person and allows for more colorful descriptions.
You might be interested in the descriptions we've heard used with reference to our president.
The speaker can be a factor as well. Caribou Barbie has made a career saying nasty things about her opponents. That tends to invite a comparable response. Ms Fluke is simply a woman who was asked by some congresspeople to give her opinion on women's health care issues. That normally does not bring out the rabid dogs.
Perhaps you'd like to comment on recent Romney endorser, Ted Nugent, who famously called Hillary Clinton a "toxic c***." I have not seen a lot of Republicans repudiating that statement. I wonder why.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
What is really interesting is that the Left thinks that Rush had a personal grudge against Ms. Fluke, which he didn’t. He was using her & her testimony in an analogy to get his point across (and the Left will ask what was his point). He was not personally attacking Ms. Fluke, as she could have been anyone (Ms. Smith, Ms. Elliot or Ms. Jones). She was not the target. Don’t get me wrong, he made a really bad, stupid, moronic analogy looking to get people riled up & did, but it kind of backfired on him. He was Grandstanding as he usually does, loving to hear himself talk. However, this will all die down with the next controversial issue that comes up (there will e a next) and his advertiser will come back, not all, but some, plus he’ll get new ones.
justmyopinion 1 year, 2 months ago
Heim, I know you have DNC blinders on so here is a bit more of the actual wording so there is no mistake
stabbing and hanging, we can look forward to drowning, self-immolation, drug overdose, shooting by a gun-toting vigilante, food poisoning by bad chicken salad, strangling by an ex-wife
That is a little more than giving someone enough rope to hang themselves. Then again, I knew you would step up and try to make light of those words since a fellow liberal said them. Like Geoff said above...Strangest thing.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
JimHeim - Giving one enough rope to hang himself has been in the language for centuries and is not to be taken literally by people with actual functioning brain cells. This statement is no longer PC as too many bullied kids have actually done this, so choose your words & phrases wisely as someone could take this as a threat.
justmyopinion 1 year, 2 months ago
Heim- Who is Caribou Barbie? Are you calling someone a name? Surely not after all the crying you've done about Rush
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
I guess I just can't figure out why liberals aren't laughing just as hard as they were in Bill Maher's audience right after he said Sarah Palin was a "dumb t#t." Strangest thing....*
So you think Bill Maher is, as fg put it, "the lefty version of Rush"?
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Are you calling someone a name? Surely not after all the crying you've done about Rush
Are you of all people, crying about name calling?
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Doesn't really matter what Rush is, or Bill for that matter. It's probably not acceptable for anyone to speak like that. Or...is it? Why did the left think it down right hysterical, based on the video clip, when Maher called Palin a "dumb T%*T," but are now outraged at Rush for like comments? Strangest thing. Deb, perhaps you have a good answer?
justmyopinion 1 year, 2 months ago
Doughnut, how are you buddy?
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
"So you think Bill Maher is, as fg put it, "the lefty version of Rush"? "
Clarification-although I don't think that was his intention, let me remove any doubt that I equate these two men in intellect, success, relevance, fame, etc. The left wishes they had someone whose first name had the recognition as Rush Limbaugh.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Doesn't really matter what Rush is, or Bill for that matter.
Well, yeah, it kind of does. Bill Maher doesn't "set the agenda" as Karl Rove said about Limbaugh. No Democratic politician called Bill Maher "the Majority Maker" in 2010, the way Republicans did in 1994 at a special ceremony held by lawmakers to honor him. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/FreshmenO
Bill Maher doesn't say things like "But in my heart and soul, I know I have become the intellectual engine of the conservative movement" and then claim "oh, I'm just an entertainer" when he gets called out.
No one's ever felt the need to apologize for disrespecting Bill Maher, the way the chairman of the RNC did to Limbaugh.
The man's a leader of your movement. Maher's a comedian. That matter.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
The left wishes they had someone whose first name had the recognition as Rush Limbaugh.
So he IS a conservative spokesman, then?
You can't have it both ways. Bill Maher's not a spokesman for anyone but him. Rush is "the intellectual engine of the conservative movement." For good or ill, what he says IS more important and influential than what Maher says, and pretending it's okay for him to say nasty things because Bill Maher did (even as you claim to abhor what Maher said) is ridiculous.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Why did the left think it down right hysterical, based on the video clip, when Maher called Palin a "dumb T%T,"*
Wait, the video clip shows the entire Left? In one place?
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
No, it kinda doesn't. It's no more appropriate for Maher to say what he did about Palin than it is what Limbaugh said about Fluke, than it was what Nugent said about Hillary. I don't expect you to get that, though, since you seem to think the double standard for the left is just the way it oughta be. If you were being consistent, however, you'd be rolling around on the floor, just like your compatriots were after Maher called Palin "a dumb t$&T."
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Since I wasn't even watching, Geoff, I have no way of knowing if any of my "compatriots" were even in Maher's audience when he said that. In fact, I haven't watched Maher in years, and even when I did, I always though his guests were more interesting than he was. Raising Maher (a comedian) to the level of Limbaugh (who "sets the agenda"---Karl Rove's word, not mine) may warm Maher's heart, but it just ain't so.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Dusty...who do you think was in Maher's audience, Darth Cheney? This isn't about levels of decency. It's about single standards for what's acceptable to say about people and what isn't. The left seems to think what's okay for Maher, even wildly hysterical, isn't okay or funny for Rush. What's funny about that is, you apparently want the rest of us to take you seriously and share your outrage?
debsalomon 1 year, 2 months ago
OK, gentlemen; let's call a truce. The sad take-away is that every time somebody like Rush, on either side, makes an outrageous remark he or she gets more attention. Even sadder: Mr. Limbaugh got carried away, showed his true feelings about women which in this case are ugly, sexist, misogynist, offensive. And his stilted apology was no better. Of course he isn't the annointed spokesman for the far right ... which is why he should sit down and shut up. Peace.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Okay, Deb, fair enough. So Mr. Maher's comment that Sarah Palin is a "dumb t$%t" ' showed his true feelings about women which in this case are ugly, sexist, misogynist, offensive?' Is that what you mean?
JimL 1 year, 2 months ago
Liberals are trying to make this about the GOP/conservatives being opposed to "insurance-subsidized birth control", which is what they would like it to be about so they can paint Geoff Cutler and others like him as neanderthals.
The REAL issue is the Obama administration requiring Catholic institutions to provide birth control and the morning after pill at all which is contradictory to Catholic doctrine and to the Constitution, which requires separation of church and state.
justmyopinion 1 year, 2 months ago
Dookie Deb- "Mr. Limbaugh got carried away, showed his true feelings about women which in this case are ugly, sexist, misogynist, offensive"
Why would you make such a careless remark like that? You know that his not his "true feelings about women." He got carried away and said something stupid in attempts of making this a democrat vs republican issue like he does everyday for three hours or so per day.
DoubleHeroides 1 year, 2 months ago
@Geoffcutler and Justmyopinion, and anyone else for that matter, I don’t give two whits about this discussion, quite frankly this place devolves into a “you called me a name first” argument fully equipped with “so and so called so and so this so you can’t call people that” evidence to the point that I quite frankly think that we should either all shut up or (and this is the fun way) go ahead and admit that everyone calls people names and just get over it and call each other names with impunity.
Yes Bill Maher would qualify as a comedian or entertainer more than Rush. Bill Maher was a stand up comedian, hosted comedy shows, worked on comedy shows. Rush hasn’t done any of that and simply works as a radio talk show host. Can talk show hosts be funny? Absolutely. Are they considered “comedians” like a real comedian is? No.
I’m not saying either is right in what they did or said but let’s cut the crap and call things what they are.
And finally, Deb Salmon in her earlier post clearly used the clichéd statement “give himself enough rope” if you don’t get that cliché then we’ve got bigger issues. She then went on to list other figurative ways that he would “give himself enough rope” but listed other ways people can be killed. She also said “…Figuratively of course” obviously being figurative just like “give himself enough rope.”
(in the event you don’t know the cliché it means that with enough rope you’ll do something dumb and hurt or kill yourself…figuratively)
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
Courseaire - Ms. Fluke did not say one word about her sex life or whether she used contraceptives. By what right did Rush call her a slut, a prostitute, say that men were lined up at her bedroom door, say she was having so much sex she couldn't afford the pills, and request that she supply him with sex tapes?
Seriously, what did she do to justify that vile attack? I want to know.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
When Bill Maher spends the night at the White House (as Rush has done), I'll regard him as a serious political player.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Okay, let's cut the crap and call things what they are. Double standard! That's what they are, just like Bob Levy said. There, crap cut!
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
JimL, If health insurance comes with your job, the dollars that pay for it are yours, not the bosses. It doesn't matter what his religion is, the insurance is part of your compensation, just like vacation pay and the funds withheld for taxes.
That means that it's your conscience that has first call on coverage. Your boss has no business telling you what you should spend your money on.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
"Your boss has no business telling you what you should spend your money on." JH
Geez...more double standards, yet...so then when the Supreme Court hears this month on whether it's constitutional for the federal government to tell you to spend your money on Obamacare, they should rule against, is that the gist, Jim?
SH59 1 year, 2 months ago
justmyopinion says "Why would you make such a careless remark like that? You know that his not his "true feelings about women."
This is what's so concerning about this whole subject that someone like you enjoys listening to someone like Rush who is absolutely a woman hater with no doubt about it. And you don't see it!
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
I've posted this link before, but it deserves another look here, based upon the posts above. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/08/critics-of-rush-limbaugh-ignore-bill-maher-matt-taibbi-misogyny.html. Kirsten Powers is a liberal commentator. On this issue (and many others), she demonstrates some qualities that many liberals here sadly lack: intellectual honesty, and moral consistency. And for those here still trying to dance on the head of a pin with your "public figure", "leader," "just a comedian" comparison stuff, in my view you appear utterly foolish. Wrong is wrong. Your liberal friends attacked her simply for telling the truth. I suspect many of the liberals here will soon follow suit. (And yes, I have repeatedly condemned Rush's comments on this blog.).
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
geoff, apples, oranges. Your boss does not have the right to exercise his conscience on how you allocate your wages, and that includes health insurance coverage.
I believe the Supreme Court will decide that Congress has the authority to require all persons to have health insurance. Time will tell.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
So far none of you have even tried to justify Limbaugh's vicious attack on a private citizen for speaking out on health care except to say, "They do it too." I'm having to cope with second graders on this.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
SH59...just curious. About how many hours out of a total of 15 a week would you say you listen to Rush Limbaugh? I haven't listened to him in years, but when I did, I never got the impression that he was a "woman hater." So I assume you must listen to him all the time to know for certain he's a woman hater. Aside from the stupid comments he made about Fluke, what did you hear that the rest of us have missed?
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
I know, Jim. You and the rest of the looney-left has made it quite plain. We follow your rule book, but you don't have to. We've seen it all before, over and over and over again as those nations collapse onto the ash heaps of history.
SH59 1 year, 2 months ago
Thatcher says "qualities that many liberals here sadly lack". This is what I have a hard time dealing with when it comes to the religious right. You say wrong is wrong but what are you basing your idea of wrong on? Liberals are so emphatic here because we have a very strong sense of what's right and wrong and don't base our beliefs on what someone wrote in the Bible. We're people of real life and understand what's right and wrong based on an understanding of the human condition. I suspect most of us started out with some religious training and somewhere along the line came to the conclusion that religion was trying too hard to suppress the independent thinking that we brought to the table based on real life experience. Christianity has made people who don't think because they are following a book that is designed to control the people with archaic beliefs. Get in the real world and try to think for yourself, you'd be surprised at how moral you will become.
SH59 1 year, 2 months ago
geoffcutler, I listened to him years ago and read what he said about Fluke. Based on his diytrade he hasn't changed in years.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
SH59-- Don't get ahead of yourself. I didn't quote the Bible. Calling a woman a "sl#t," tw@t," or "c2@*T," is simply disgusting...regardless of your religious beliefs. And regardless of who says it (whether an "entertainer," a "comedian," or a "talk show host"), and regardless of whether the comment is directed to a private or public citizen. It remains what it originally was: disgusting. Hope that helps.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
SH59-- "Get in the real world and try to think for yourself...." You should try this idea. It really works!
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
To me, this is very simple: if any of the liberals here, or any of the conservatives, believe that calling any woman a "s#8t," "tw&t," "prostitute," or "c*@T," is acceptable, under any circumstance, or that defending such comments is acceptable, under any circumstances, just let us know. Until you post your reply here explaining why, please be quiet.
lakeview 1 year, 2 months ago
Exactly Thatcher.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
harley-- Re-read my post. I did not exempt conservatives. Nor did I exempt myself. If you think I've been intellectually dishonest or inconsistent, let me know which post. If not, then perhaps you should retract your post.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
And I'm part of "the far right loonies"? Really? Which ones?
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
"... which is why he should sit down and shut up."
Its good to have a dream
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
Hey fugitiveguy! Great to have you here. Are you one of "the far right loonies" to which harley refers?
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
harley-- No need to apologize at all! And I can understand the back and forth here...folks say offensive stuff (on each side) at every turn, then folks try to beat the offensive comment by being more offensive, etc. Got it. Vicious cycle. My side is as guilty as yours. These are troubling times, which (to me) deserves more honest and serious debate. But thanks for being so kind. Be well!
nothingspecial 1 year, 2 months ago
Guess I'm one of those far right loonies too, then. Ms. Salomon I always enjoy your articles! Thatcher, such a good point you make.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
Thanks nothingspecial! My wife helps to keep me honest.
justmyopinion 1 year, 2 months ago
Heim says
So far none of you have even tried to justify Limbaugh's vicious attack on a private citizen for speaking out on health care except to say, "They do it too." I'm having to cope with second graders on this
Jimmy- What the hell are you talking about.? Did you ever think that no one (of us) is trying to justify what Limbaugh is saying. Can't you understand that we think it was a disgusting comment as well? Why would anyone want to try to justify it.
And by the way, she has been very outspoken on a variety of feminist issues so I don't know why you continue to say she is your average private citizen when she has put herself in leadership roles on some of these topics. I think even you can agree that when you speak out in public that you opens yourself up to public criticism. I see nothing wrong with criticism of her based on issue but definitely with the language Rush used.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
well said JMO.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
Well there goes any chance she had in winning a slander suit since she is a public figure. Just not as well known as Palin & Bachman until Rush made her. She'll now be able to run for office on the Democratic ticket.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Even public figures can sue for slander in cases where they can show "actual malice." Limbaugh's statements, on their face, were particularly malicious in that they showed "reckless disregard" for the truth.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
This argument would be like a bank robber on trial saying that other people rob banks too, so why pick on me.
I missed all those letters you wrote when Bill Maher went after Palin. I missed, too, the ones you wrote to complain about the Obama bone-in-nose cartoon. You must have been busy that day.
Face it; this is a partisan fight. You can't bear to come down on Rush because you believe he was right. You agree that he was just careless in his choice of words. This Republican assault on women's rights works just fine for you, Not so much for us.
debsalomon 1 year, 2 months ago
What is the masculine word for "slut?" Is there one? This whole mess proves that the double standard is alive and well and roaring. Women who stand up for reproductive rights are called "feminists" usually modified by "strident." I cannot understand why the ability to bear children makes us so vulnerable. Sad.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
The masculine word for "slut" is "dick". We've actually had to put up with that derogatory term longer than the females have been called "slut". It has been a heavy burden that we've endured. I can't tell you how many times I've been called a "dick."
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
It's interesting that the issue was transmogrified into a dispute about name-calling. Not by me. I have no problem with that. I do it all the time.
Where is becomes problematic is when the powerful pick on the powerless. And worse when they have to lie when they do it.
Limbaugh had to create his lies out of whole cloth, because Ms Fluke's testimony did not fit his needs. She talked about health care, he wanted it to be about wanton sex. So he created a straw woman and attacked it viciously.
But the thing is, She was right and he was dead wrong. And his choice of words wasn't the issue. He was simply playing the bully (his favorite activity not involving narcotics). What made his conduct reprehensible wasn't the choice of words, but the choice of target and flood of lies needed to make his point.
When you have to lie to win the argument, you've lost the argument.
justmyopinion 1 year, 2 months ago
"You can't bear to come down on Rush because you believe he was right"
Sorry Kimmy. Rush was wrong. You really need professional help. I have never listened to Rush in my life other than what was shown in the media and you claim I support what he says. Sorry jim, just because you need a political party to tell your ass what to think and say, don't think for one minute that i do. I could care one damn less what Rush says and that is about as much as what I think of you and your comments.
mcg2010 1 year, 2 months ago
You know what is a HUGE problem with this "discussion" is? From what I can tell, Deb S. is the ONLY female commenting on this. Again this is a male dominated conversation, which is what got us here in the first place (see, Rep. Issa's first hearing on this where Ms. Fluke wasn't allowed to speak). So, as a woman, let me chime in. I am less concerned about Rush's stupid (which, yes we all agree, they were s.t.u.p.i.d.) comments and more concerned about the fact that from Wilmington to Arizona women are being attacked over birth control. Something that is beneficial to women's health in every capacity. Instead we are being put on trial for trying to maintain our health (and not just in terms of being childless). Birth control helps control and treat a number of ailments that women, and only women face. If this social issue is truly about reigning in sexual depravity then why don't I hear Rick Santorum and Rush and anyone else attacking men, or screaming for condoms to be ripped from the shelves? Why is this our problem? Why aren't men being called out for their indiscretions? Last time I checked, it took two people to make a baby (unless you're a female and decide to do it on your own in which case, birth control is probably the last of your concerns).
Now this all started because Obama brought it up. Yes, perhaps a distraction tactic by the White House, but you know what, the Republicans took the bait. Hook, line and sinker. And yes, it started out as a perceived attack on Catholics and religions who don't approve of birth control and don't want to pay for it. Fine. I get that. I concede, don't make them pay for it. It's when elected officials are still talking about birth control and talking about it in terms of controlling women's lives? How on Earth does that have anything to do with the original issue of making the church or "tax dollars" pay for contraception? Oh, right. It doesn't.
This hideous concept that women use birth control as the tool fuel their sexual deviant life styles has to stop. Or we have to let men stop buying condoms. One of the two. You can't punish one and ignore the other. That's where Rush went wrong. He could have used the term "harlot" or "floozy" it wouldn't have changed the connotation that he created. Women who want contraception = loose. And regardless of your position on birth control that stance isn't going to get you any where, because it's inherently inflammatory and discriminatory.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
mcg2010's post was one of the more cogent on the topic. The one point that our side is adamant on is that health care coverage provided by employers uses the employees' dollars. Always. That is not a gift; it's part of the compensation package along with such things as vacation pay and contributions to a 401(k) or pension plan.
I doubt very seriously that an employer could restrict the use of money from a retirement account to non-birth control products. The same with health insurance. Since the money for that policy comes out of the employee's paycheck, the employer doesn't get to have a moral or religious objection.
That's our position and we'll be fighting tooth and nail to prevent yet another erosion in women's liberty. Besides, the other beneficiary (as mcg so cleverly pointed out) is men.
kiki 1 year, 2 months ago
JH "I doubt very seriously that an employer could restrict the use of money from a retirement account to non-birth control products. The same with health insurance. Since the money for that policy comes out of the employee's paycheck, the employer doesn't get to have a moral or religious objection."
Employers are allowed to choose the benefits they want to offer to their employees (eye care, dental, co-pay. retirement program, etc.) Employees are open to choose the employers they work for based on the benefits offered by the employer. Most employers also pay a substantial portion of an employees medical benefits (in our case it is nearly $6,000 a year paid by the employer per employee). The employer, religious or not, is able to choose the benefits that they offer based on the their financial position and / or the desired employee skill level. An employer can select to offer no medical benefits. (I'm not sure about laws applying to size of companies.) The benefit offering should be equal to all employees.
moonchild7 1 year, 2 months ago
Thanks Deb for your comments but the TEAPOTS will never learn. Too much STEAM up in their craniums. To mcg2010, I commented ad nauseum in Dusty's column. Go back and read it for some context. You know what the REAL problems is I think? We women just don't have enough comediens out there to give those good 'ole boys a run for their money. Right now Lisa Lampanelli is probably the only FEMALE stand-up comic who could stand up to Rush or Bill Maher. I can't quote her here, look some of her jokes up for yourself. Name calling isn't pleasant but it is a reality. Here's what Lenny Bruce had to say: "You see, the trouble is that we all live in a happy ending culture, a what should be culture instead of a what is culture. We're all taught that fantasy. But if we were taught this is what is I think we'd be less screwed up." For those of you with no clue about Bruce, he was arrested back in the 60's for exercising his FREEDOM of SPEECH as a comedian. The issue is "the war on women" that those on the RIGHT are crazy to want to fight. Women will be earning more than men in a few years. President Obama is 20 points up on the Repubs as far as the women's vote goes and more than 50 points above them with the Hispanic voters. Of course I'm glad in one way but it's ultimately sad for our country as a whole. Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton are more than able to handle Bill Maher's name calling. I actually think Sarah should become a comedien, she'd be great and I'm serious. Again, Ms. Fluke as a private citizen was not prepared nor deserved Rush's lambasting. Lastly a few words from the master, Mark Twain: "Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer."
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
kiki - It used to be true that employers could define the health packages. That's changing. At least 28 states now regulate the health insurance market, and with PPACA coming into effect, the federal government will fill a larger role. With these mechanisms, we'll be able to mandate certain minimums, and contraceptives will be required.
It's also true that employers have a vested interested in providing the kind of care that attracts and holds talented employees. When they're female, they demand full coverage. It's our task to make sure it's provided.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Meanwhile, conservatives begin attacking Sandra Fluke's boyfriend and his family for being, in their words, "Socialist Jews."
http://thegraph.com/2012/03/sandra-flukes-boyfriend/
Nice.
I'm sure this is just fine and dandy with our resident right wingers , because Bill Maher said mean things about Sarah Palin.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
You know what the REAL problems is I think? We women just don't have enough comediens out there to give those good 'ole boys a run for their money. Right now Lisa Lampanelli is probably the only FEMALE stand-up comic who could stand up to Rush or Bill Maher.
Lampanelli, maybe, although she's a little too fond of dick jokes. Try Amy Pohler, Tina Fey, Ellen Degeneres, Maria Bamford, Margaret Cho, Sarah Silverman, Wanda Sykes, Amy Sedaris, Tig Notaro...not sure if Samantha Bee's done stand up but I wouldn't be surprised.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Yes,,,I see now what you mean now. If you're a comedian, it's perfectly legitimate to call someone on national television a "dumb tw%t."
MCNative 1 year, 2 months ago
"The one point that our side is adamant on is that health care coverage provided by employers uses the employees' dollars. Always. That is not a gift; it's part of the compensation package along with such things as vacation pay and contributions to a 401(k) or pension plan."
Jim, you make a valid point here and because of this, I make a apology to all women for that part of my post to Mr. Levy's article where I said that private companies should not be required to pay for birth control. You are right, we pay for our insurance, at least some if not all of it, and we should be able to decide what will be covered. I stand corrected.
I still can not believe that Limbaugh believes he is anything "Intellectual." Let alone an "Intellectual Engine" of the Right. I stand by my earlier statement.
'It humors me that Rush Limbaugh thinks he is the "Intellectual engine" of anything. It scares me that he may be right.' At least in this instance
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Yes,,,I see now what you mean now. If you're a comedian, it's perfectly legitimate to call someone on national television a "dumb tw%t."
"Legitimacy" is irrelevant to a comedian.
It makes a difference when you become an "honorary" member of the U.S. House, when the White House Deputy Chief of staff admits you "set the agenda," when you appear as a featured speaker at the biggest gathering of conservatives in the country, etc. etc.
With that kind of influence comes a greater responsibility. Comparing Maher's influence with Limbaugh's is just laughable, and I've been wondering why you people have suddenly fixated on him...till I saw Jon Stewart's piece on this (hilarious, BTW) and saw that, once again, you're all following behind Faux News. Of course. That's the fount of all bizarre right wing fixations.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
Just like Dusty Rhoades & Goeff Cutler as columnist of The Pilot comes greater responsibility when posting comments to theirs & other online pieces (though I have noticed lately, you're doing much better). Dusty, you give Faux News & Limbaugh way too much credit for their influence, really.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Not nearly as much over-credit as Faux News and the people here give Maher. He's the bogeyman du jour, it seems. I'm sure he's loving it, though.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
I am surprised that they have not given more authority and power to Stewart & Colbert
justmyopinion 1 year, 2 months ago
You almost get it Geoff. You still have to be a liberal to get away with calling a conservative a name for it to be OK with the dems.
moonchild7 1 year, 2 months ago
Geoff, they (and some musicians) seem to be the only ones with the "balls" enough to exercise the right of the First Amendment to our "Freedom of Speech". They've been jailed, sued, ridiculed, and fired for saying things that others maybe want to say but don't, for fears of "backlash". Now, I'm NOT TALKING about Slander, Libel, or Hate Speech. Lenny Bruce overdosed and died before his court appearance for his "pottymouth" arrest. Jim Morrison also died before his Florida court appeal appearance because of his "pottymouth/exhibitionist" exploits. Florida Gov. Christ pardoned him posthumously. Who was the last "POLITITIAN" to be arrested for things he or she said? Bill Maher was just interviewed about Rush by ABC and said, "...he went after a civilian about a very specific behavior, that was a lie, speaking for a party that has systematically gone after women's rights all year, on the public airwaves. I used a rude word about a public figure who gives as good as she gets, who's called people "terrorists and unAmerican"....the First Amendment was specifically designed for citizens to insult polititians." Dusty, I like all of those women comedians although Rosanne Barr is my absolute favorite. I grew up watching Richard Pryor and George Carlin on 60's tv talk shows so they influenced me a lot. Because I grew up watching the NYC and D.C. tv stations I probably saw a lot of shows others never saw. If you have time check out "Joe Pyne". He pioneered the "confrontational style" of interviews that others copied. I would watch his show after I came home from school and NOTHING was off the table but he was a conservative and hated "hippies". I think I've enjoyed good debates ever since.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Thanks! I'll try harder.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
I am surprised that they have not given more authority and power to Stewart & Colbert
They've tried, but then Stewart and Colbert just come back and get everyone laughing at them. It's like one of the first rules of attending a live comedy show: don't heckle, because it just draws negative attention from someone quicker, smarter, and funnier than you.
moonchild7 1 year, 2 months ago
Colbert gave the Bush Administration a shellacking at the Wash. Correspondents Dinner several yeras ago. He's been banned. It seems they never realized he's a FAUX TV CONSERVATIVE. Free Speech is great isn't it?
debsalomon 1 year, 2 months ago
Let's package this and sell as a reality show: "The Killer Komedy Roundtable"...maybe pick up some of Rush's old sponsors, ones that were willing to sponsor his rants until they turned from objectional to disgusting. Dusty will moderate, Geoff the worthy opponent. Each will be allowed four henchwomen...aye, there's the rub. Women would put this controversy to bed (you should excuse the expression) in the blink of a fasle eyelash.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
If anyone in the media is a threat to conservatives, it's not Maher, it's Stewart and Colbert who skewer hypocrisy with laser wits.
And Colbert's take down of Bush the Lesser was a lesson in how satire works when taking truth to power.
A few years ago my wife was interviewed on Fox Business by Brian Kilmeade, and even though it was her first network TV interview, the video is still shown to teach how to steer an unsuspecting interviewer away from his agenda. It was a minor masterpiece. (If you look, you might still find the video on the web)
Note to TV interviewers: When someone has 'colonel' in her name, she is probably well schooled in taking command of any situation. Your job may not be easy.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Which controversy, Deb, the one about distinguishing by the use of double standards who is and isn't allowed to use foul language toward woman? Or the controversy about a woman begging Congress for free contraception from a Catholic institution? To tell you the truth, I've kinda lost track.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
debsalomon-- Cool idea! However, there might be a problem with "Rush's old sponsors" (there are very few of them), and for that matter, with some of his newer ones, including the New York Times. http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/14/ny-times-advertising-during-rush-limbaugh-on-flagship-station/. This helps explain what DR and JimHeim were referring to earlier regarding advertisers supposedly bailing on Rush, resulting in "dead air" at WABC in New York. (Note: To date, there is nothing that explains local station WEEB's alleged "dead air" which forced them to cover a Pinecrest baseball game two hours before it occurred...like the Loch Ness Monster, this remains an unsolved mystery). I would certainly support a debate between DR and Geoff. That would be fun! And I'll help sponsor it, so long as foul language is prohibited. I'm not trying to deplete anyone's arsenal, I just think foul language is a waste of time, and inappropriate. Thanks!
blessherheart 1 year, 2 months ago
Bravo Deb! Excellent column! I found myself cheering!
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
And Geoff, sorry for volunteering you to face off against DR...thought the two Pilot columnists would make it interesting. Plus, you are very bright. If you're unavailable, we've got Courseaire, fugitiveguy, and many others here on the bench. This could be a fun night!
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
Try to remember that the students at Georgetown are required by the school to buy health insurance, They use their own money ($1,800 a year) and the school does not pay for any of it. Tell me again how the catholic school is being required to pay for contraception.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Time and place...time and place.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
Geoff, I assume by that response that you have no answer.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
JimHeim - I believe provides the vehicle with which to purchase the insurance (at a group rate) and if you don't want theirs, then you can get your own.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
JimHeim-- Did it ever occur to you that if Georgetown requires each student to have basic coverage costing $1,800, that ANY one of those students are free to purchase additional coverage so as to cover birth control pills (which costs about $15 a month regardless of insurance) or anything else? And whatever happened to Obama's "every kid stays on his parents' insurance until he/she is 26?" Yes, I know, Ms. Fluke is older, but the bulk of her "testimony" concerned her female law school friends...most of whom are 21-24 years old. Help us out here.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
JimHeim-- The bottom line is simple. Neither Georgetown, nor anyone else, is "prohibiting" Ms. Fluke or any other student from buying or using birth control. You know this. There is no war against women or their reproductive rights, anymore than there's a war against men who buy insurance that covers prostate issues. If they (men or women) want such coverage, they can purchase it. The rest of this stuff is nonsense.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
The bottom line is that this insurance is not purchased with school/church money and the bishops are in no position to complain. I am unaware of health plans that do not provide coverage for prostate diseases.
Our side insists that birth control be covered as part of the health care insurance. We do not intend to back down.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
Just curious, how much does a months supply of bcp's cost anyway. Just trying to get some perspective.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
A month's supply of asprin is about $4.99. My wife uses that method all the time.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
About a sawbuck.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
Here is Reality World they run from $15 to $50 a month (plus annual gynecological exam) for a total of about $1,000.
If the anti-abortion movement wasn't a total fraud they would support measures that reduce abortions. First is comprehensive, scientifically accurate, age-appropriate sex education in schools which has been shown to delay sexual activity and, when the young people finally do, increases the likelihood of contraceptive and safe sex use. Second is issuing birth control pills in annual amounts instead of monthly, which reduces abortions by two-thirds.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
JimHeim-- "We do not intend to back down (i.e. demanding free birth control)." This is a brave position. And one you have repeated here many times. On behalf of all Americans who demand that others pay for their stuff, we salute you.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
One would think our president would have bigger fish to fry unless this is an attempt to win over the women of childbearing age demographic.
debsalomon 1 year, 2 months ago
The worms in the can I opened did not have specific names, like lefty,Tea Party, socialist, feminist, ball breaker. My intent was to turn Rush's words back against him, emphasize his hypocrisy and unmask the ugly feeling about women evident in his comments. My intent was not to have teams line up behind Linbaugh and Bill Mahr, who can be equally vile....but in a comical, derisive way, still no excuse. Rush warmed to the subject in a manner I as a woman found menacing, frightening. The birth control subject unleashed in him something very dark. The public figures who dismissed his hurtful words have there own problems, the first being embarrassment.. I commend Ms. Fluke for keeping her head when all about her were losing theirs. She should make an excelllent attorney. As for you gentlemen commentors, pretend Rush was calling your mother/wife/girf friend/daughter those names. I see bloody noses in my rear-view mirror. Let's all sleep on it...and watch the basketball games.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
debsalomon-- If Rush, or anyone else (including those on the left), called my daughters a name, I'd punch them in the mouth...probably twice. But I would hope that as my daughters grew older and wiser, they would not embarrass me or themselves by asking other Americans to pay for their personal choices. Whether it be birth control, their mortgage, or their health insurance policy. And if they did this, I would have failed as a dad.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
Deb, I don't think anyone on here has endorsed or agreed with Rush's remarks, quite the contrary. I do however think its pretty telling that someone who has been on radio for a couple of decades, 3 hrs a day 5 days a week so rarely gives the left anything to raise a ruckus about. A ruckus which I feel is mostly phony as they and maybe yourself view his words as a gift of a club that you can use to pummel him with. Unfortunately for the left, the club has turned out to be a wiffle ball bat, sure it stings like hell but it really doesn't cause any lasting harm.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Tell me again how the catholic school is being required to pay for contraception.
You'll never get an answer. "They're trying to make someone else pay for it" is the newest Zombie Lie. You can't kill it. You can point out over and over that this is a regulation on insurance that the customer pays for, and a guarantee that within five posts, someone will go "why should others pay for her choice."
they would not embarrass me or themselves by asking other Americans to pay for their personal choices.
See? Zombie Lie.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
Golly, DR. I'm now posting "Zombie Lies" about my own daughters? You are an amazing individual.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
A lie's a lie, whoever it's about. But please don't miss any opportunity to play the wounded victim.
This whole sham that conservatives are indulging in--that this is all about loose women having sex on someone else's dime--reminds me of a saying I read a few weeks ago: "A conservative cannot enjoy a steak unless he knows that somewhere, somehow, someone else cannot have steak."
The entire movement is obsessed with this idea that someone's trying to get something from them, to the point where they just make stuff up so they can either act the victim or the bold defender of the oppressed white middle class Christian male.
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
"A conservative cannot enjoy a steak unless he knows that somewhere, somehow, someone else cannot have steak."
No further proof is needed that you know absolutely nothing about how conservatives think or what motivates us.
moonchild7 1 year, 2 months ago
What does "motivate" you conservatives, fugitiveguy? Other than hypocricy, selfishness and loose noodles?
fugitiveguy 1 year, 2 months ago
"What does "motivate" you conservatives, fugitiveguy? Other than hypocricy, selfishness and loose noodles?"
Seeing the mentally challenged enjoying themselves participating in public forums gives me a lot of joy.
kiki 1 year, 2 months ago
I might be the exception but . . . as I moved up in management in various companies. including religious sponsored organizations, the company paid a significant portion of the health benefits. The employee paid a fee from $15 to $50 per month. The balance would equal in the thousands per employee. (This is different for dependents.) So on many cases the employee doe not pay for their medical coverage. This may not apply on all cases and if an employee or student is paying for their own medical insurance they should be able to choose for the coverage they choose. especcially if it is purchased outside of the organization.
I can see where, if a BCP or ED pill was the only or primary option to cure / prevent a disease or medical condition, and not just to prevent pregnancy, it could be part of the religious organizations plan. In the cases where the employer is paying for the medical coverage, I don't understand where the government can force a religious organization to pay for something that is against one of their core beliefs - BCP used for birth control exclusivly. I alos believe that if surgery is undertaken to exclusivly to prevent pregnancy it should be offered or not offered to both genders equally.
BTW . . . I voted for Obama and probably will again this time around. I am all about social justice and that includes respecting the core beliefs of religious organizations and the dignity of each individual.
debsalomon 1 year, 2 months ago
Last licks, I promise. Whoever pays, isn't affordable, easy-to-obtain, responsibly used BC better than abortion?
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
Deb - That's probably the best argument I've heard yet.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
Moonie - What does "motivate" you conservatives, fugitiveguy? Other than hypocricy, selfishness and loose noodles? There are other things, but that's a good start.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
And liberals will one day succeed in having congress and their liberal president pass a federal law that for humane reasons, cows will no longer be killed for steak, (they aren't healthy, either), but they will then be found to have saved some of the cows for themselves, and be caught eating steak at their dachas.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
You know Geoff, when you counter my accusation of right wingers making up paranoid fantasies by posting a paranoid right wing fantasy, you don't help your case much.
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Yes, Deb, of course, the problem is, who pays?
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Mine isn't a fantasy, nor is it paranoid. It's an illustrative stretch of liberal realities that occur on a regular basis, both now and throughout history. Yours is an inaccurate definition and understanding of conservatism.
I see we're all up early.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Mine isn't a fantasy, nor is it paranoid. It's an illustrative stretch of liberal realities that occur on a regular basis, both now and throughout history.
"A distinguished historian has said that one of the most valuable things about history is that it teaches us how things do not happen. It is precisely this kind of awareness that the paranoid fails to develop. He has a special resistance of his own, of course, to developing such awareness, but circumstances often deprive him of exposure to events that might enlighten him—and in any case he resists enlightenment. We are all sufferers from history, but the paranoid is a double sufferer, since he is afflicted not only by the real world, with the rest of us, but by his fantasies as well."
It's truly scary how prescient Richard Hofstader was.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
kiki - You clearly have never had to budget for a department in a corporation. Every penny that a company pays for health insurance for it's employees comes out of the employee compensation budget. It would have been paid in cash, but because Republicans have never understood taxation, companies wound up providing some of their employee's pay as health insurance.
Bottom line - If you work for a company in America your health insurance was paid for by you and no one else. Your boss did not pay one thin dime and has no claim on how you use it.
kiki 1 year, 2 months ago
Deb, I agree with your statement re: affordability and availability. Is there a way we can create an option that accomplishes your goal . . . BCP available and affordable for all women that choose to use them . . . and respect the core values of religious groups? It isn't either / or but both / and.
Can we suggest to insurance companies that they offer an addendum policy that is for BCPs? It could be for the same carrier that their employer offers. In a free market I feel as though this could be good opportunity for a insurance company and if one offers it that most will have to follow. This would make it affordable and available without forcing a religious organization go against their core beliefs.
Can we respect the health of women and the religious organization's values? I think so if we (Americans) are willing to think outside of our political party's talking points and political agenda.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
JimHeim - Yes, if the employer pays for healthcare, it is a benefit to the employee, but the employer still pays it. The employer can choose which provider, what coverage & how much they'll pay. What you are talking about is just where the employer accounts for it.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
What does "motivate" you conservatives, fugitiveguy? Other than hypocricy, selfishness and loose noodles?
You left out hate and fear of "the Other", bitterness over the loss of some imagined supremacy, paranoia about further imagined losses, and the worship of violence.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
Yes, if the employer pays for healthcare, it is a benefit to the employee, but the employer still pays it.
And they pay it in exchange for the worker's labor, correct? It's not a gift. And it's certainly not something that "we" pay for.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
Courseaire, they're paying for it with wages withheld from the employee's check, just as they do with FICA and income taxes. They are no more using their money for health insurance than it's their money going to pay Social Security and Medicare.
The employer is not paying the bill and should have no say in the employee's moral decisions with regard to their health coverage. Nobody is requiring the worker to use contraception; it's her choice. That's our position.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
JimHeim - Depending on the employer - some provide & pay for complete coverage, others pay a portion & the employee pays a portion (and of course the employer decides those portions, not the employee) and yes the employee's portion is taken out of the employee's paycheck. The important thing to understand here is that it's the employers decision on payment & provider.
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
But the employer's discretion is not unlimited. They're not allowed, or should not be allowed at least, to discriminate against employees on the basis of gender or religion, which is what you're advocating.
kiki 1 year, 2 months ago
JH - Please don't be condescending . . . I have indeed managed departments of mulitnational corporations. Our company did well over $20 billion in revenue and I held a senior position. I also hold a MBA from one of the top 10 universities in the country. Thank you in advance!
Listing medical insurance in the employee compensation area does not mean that the employee is paying for it. It is listed in that area to track employment expenses - salary, FICA, Medicare, Medical insurance, pension, etc. In many companies if an employee chooses not to subscribe to the comapany's plan there is no aditonal compensation in their check. Some companies do offer a portion of the medical insurance costs if an empoyee chooses not to accept the medical plan. In my current position, the employee pays $15 per pay period and the company pays the balance of the annual premium ($5500) for each employee on the plan. If a person chooses not to take the coverage there is no additional compensation paid to the employee. Therefore, the comapny is paying over 90% of the empoyees medical benefits. Your company might be different but to make a blanket statement to support your political beliefs is not right or acurate.
"Bottom line - If you work for a company in America your health insurance was paid for by you and no one else. Your boss did not pay one thin dime and has no claim on how you use it."
This statement is untrue and it is untrue in each of the firms that I have worked!
kiki 1 year, 2 months ago
DR - "And they pay it in exchange for the worker's labor, correct?" In some cases this is corrent and it is considered a benefit in order to attract "better" employees but it is still a benefit of employment and not part of salary.In most cases an employee does not claim medical benefits on their federal tax form therefore is is not salary.This is one of the benefits that may determne who the employee wants to work for but I would not say medical benefits are in exchange for labor but a benefit of employment. It may however be considered part of the overall compensation package
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
The whole idea of employer-paid health insurance arose in WWII as a means to hold down wage inflation. It is considered part of employee pay.
If you have a co-pay, it just means that the employer has chosen to hide to true cost of the insurance. Both the original premium and the co-pay are coming out of the employee's pocket.
debsalomon 1 year, 2 months ago
Back to the core issue (other than Rush Limbough being a #%&*)...A friend suggested I add this for pro-life conservatives: It's easier to get a low-cost or "free" abortion than insurance-subsidized birth control. Do you see something wrong with that picture???? So anybody who is adamantly pro-life should be waving the flags for subsidized BC, from whomever,
dustyrhoades 1 year, 2 months ago
I would not say medical benefits are in exchange for labor but a benefit of employment.
You realize this is a distinction without a difference, right?
Arestorer 1 year, 2 months ago
debsalomon41 minutes ago; Thats just to sensible !!!!
geoffcutler 1 year, 2 months ago
Very well handled Kiki, and informative to boot.
Deb, it doesn't matter what the product or service is. If it's subsidized by government, or in some way through other peoples tax payments or hard earned money, conservatives will likely have a problem with it. Liberals won't because government subsidy by confiscation of other peoples money to then be redistributed is the ultimate goal.
kiki 1 year, 2 months ago
JH - Let's just leave it at I do not agree with you re: medical insurance but I will say that if the employer cuts a check payable to the medical insurance firm for the employee's premium and there is no monetary value to the employee then the employer is paying that amount of the insurance premium DR - Good point . . . I guess I should have stated that there is no salary value (cash) of the medical insurance to the employee in exchange for labor. The premium payment is not claimed as income by the employee and the cash needed to pay the premium on behalf of the employee, by the employer, is claimed as income in its financials in the form of revenue for its product or service. The employee's premium payment is an employment expense to the employer not the employee.
kiki 1 year, 2 months ago
Deb - I would also add, that to a "pro-lifer", it isn't a matter of dollars and cents. Rather about respect for life (hopefully mother AND baby) and the definition of when "life" occurs.
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
The Congressional Budget Office regards employer-supplied health insurance as direct employee compensation. I accept that opinion. On our side, we will fight for laws that respect that and the employee's conscience, which I think is the one that counts.
I don't need other people making moral judgments for me.
kiki 1 year, 2 months ago
JH - I understand what you are stating but I think it is a difference of a definition of "paying". I also understand that the CBO refers to employer "offered" health insurance as part of the compensation package of an employee. However this is theoritical. My point is that the employer "pays" for and decides most all aspects of the coverage based on their fiancial postion and preferences. In many companies there isn't any "salary" differential between employees that subscribe to health insurance or those who don't. An employer can change or drop the coverage based on their position. The cost to the employer is recovered by higher prices for products or services, lower salaries for employees, and other cost limitations.
In summary, employer paid / sulpplied health insurance is in theory part of the employees compensation but the employee has very little influence in the cost or coverage and the monies for payment of the premiums come from the employer and their costs structure. I guess if employees received salary increases equal to the costs of their premiums if their insurance was dropped i might be able to agree but that happens very rarely.
Thanks for the discussion!
JimHeim 1 year, 2 months ago
I worked for a number of companies while my wife served in the air force. I declined the company insurance as I was covered by the military plan. Every one of them paid me what they would have paid to the insurance company. As a result I made a few thousand extra dollars a year.
I regard that as compelling evidence that employers understand the concept.
And the discussion has been fun and illuminating.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
DR (18 hours, 43 min. ago)-- I haven't been a victim since 2nd grade, and I don't play one here. To me, what's missing here from our friends on the Left is any notion (or even mention) of personal responsibility. There is no conservative I have ever met that opposes women (or men) using birth control. We think that just like your mortgage (or rent), your cell phone bill, and other bills that you incur are up to you and should be paid by you...not paid for by others (or by higher insurance premiums paid by others). Simply Google "Planned Parenthood Free Birth Control." As you can see, this is only one of many organizations that provides free birth control for the poor. Thus, the "poor" have full access to free birth control. As to others who are not "poor," they can pay for it themselves, just like they can pay for their cell phone and other things they want. There is nothing mean-spirited about this. It's called "budgeting," and millions of families across the country do this every day. And no, they don't think of themselves as "victims." Nor do they demand free stuff from their neighbors. Hope that helps.
moonchild7 1 year, 2 months ago
Two World Wars, the Robber Barons Thievery, and then the GREAT DEPRESSION proved that it's IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to be to take care of themselves, their families, and their neighbor without outside HELP. My maternal grandmother tried but it took a huge toll on her husband and her children. The creation of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and Food Stamps have helped keep America from falling off the cliff several times. Where's all the PROTESTS about those programs? This debate about Health Insurance and how they take your money, make money, pay claims, and not pay claims is crazy. Every American Citizen needs only ONE HEALTH CARD like all the other CIVILIZED WESTERN NATIONS have and BE DONE with it!!! Doctors, Pharmacies, and Hospitals will have to accept a payment from the government just as they do with Medicare and Medicaid. If they say they can't make any money well then, you GO OUT of BUSINESS, so another Company takes your place. There will always be those who can't care themselves for one reason or another so we will have to be taxed to help. Stop it cry-babies who want it all for yourselves, grow up, help others because you'll also be helping yourselves even more.
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
Oh my.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
Liberals do not think in terms of personal responsibility as they usually expect someone else to provide for them.
Courseaire 1 year, 2 months ago
Here a couple of ladies answer to Limbaughs "Slut": http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=...
Thatcher 1 year, 2 months ago
Courseaire-- Too funny!
JER 1 year, 2 months ago
There is one and only one reason why women need birth control products.....MEN!! Does it not follow then, that men should be responsible for providing birth control, free of charge to the women? I know all you right wing conservative capitalists can understand this concept: Demand and Supply.