So Safety Guarantee
- Print print this page
- Discuss 29 comments, Blog about
Advertisement
The mass murder and mayhem in a movie theater in Aurora, Colo., has once again brought out the “If-only-we-all-had-pistols-in-our-pockets-none-of-this-would-have-happened” crowd. It is certainly not that simple.
Consider the reality. First, the murderer had the drop on everybody in that theater. Even trained, experienced police officers and soldiers think twice about how to engage the enemy in that circumstance.
They think about dealing with the issue from cover and with as much information as is quickly available. They consider the possibility of collateral damage.
But let me assume for the moment that, per the pro-gun doctrine, every adult in that theater was carrying a gun.
How many of them have ever faced fire from semiautomatic weapons? How many of them have ever fired at a moving human? How many of them have ever put eight out of 10 rounds in a 2-foot “kill square” at 25 feet in a darkened range with flash-bangs going off?
How many of them would have thought or hoped that simply by firing at the ceiling from behind their adjustable theater seat they would scare the murderer into dropping his weapon[s]?
In fact, how many of them would have kept the piece in their pocket in a state of shock, never to mention they were in fact armed but impotent?
As dispiriting as it may be to admit, the existence of a Second Amendment right to bear arms in order to constitute a well-regulated militia does not necessarily result in a group of citizens, or a single citizen, capable of using deadly force effectively without a great deal of training, little or none of which is demanded prior to issuance of a carry permit.
Bob Bramwell
Pinehurst
More like this story
Advertisement
Comments
skylinefirepest 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Bob, I thought this issue was so hashed out in the last week that we'd never see another comment about guns in the Pilot. You are both right and wrong. Yes, the confusion would have been immense...and no, the people with guns would not have been firing just willy nilly which is what all the people who don't like guns seems to assume. I have read that there were some military personnel and firemen in the theater, possibly off duty policemen or others with firearms training. Such people do not simply start taking action without thought beforehand. What happened in Colorado was a shooter in a gun free zone, the one constant of almost all mass shootings! When will the people learn that a few armed patrons actually can save bunches of lives? The media seems to enjoy making huge profits off of these types of stories...and you will find with a little research that many such armed confrontations are stopped by ordinary citizens, most of the time with no shots fired, and the MEDIA IGNORES THIS!!! It doesn't sell to have a story about an armed citizen stopping a crime!
DaveyNC 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Well, Mr. Bramwell, meet Vic Stacy, an average Joe who saved a cop because he had his own weapon at hand: http://goo.gl/yD3aJ
JimRussell44 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Thanks for keeping this subject going, Mr. Bramwell. I'm sure that the gun lobby would love for this story to simply go away. My contention is that the pro-gun crowd does not want to even enter a discussion on ways to help reduce gun related crimes. I'll be the first to admit that people kill people. The firearm just makes it as simple as possible, just flex your index finger. Nobody is shot by someone who does not own a firearm. Therefore, it is the gun owners peer group that are causing the gun violence and it should be that group who should show some interest in finding ways to lessen the mayhem. Why are all of them totally against even looking for solutions? Because they are afraid. They are frightened to death that ANYTHING done in a constructive way to lessen gun violence will somehow result in their 2nd amendment rights being taken away. To them, their rights are more important than the rights of people to go see a movie or pick up a snack at a convenience store. Come on, gun owners and the NRA, come out from behind your gun and do something.
fugitiveguy 9 months, 2 weeks ago
“If-only-we-all-had-pistols-in-our-pockets-none-of-this-would-have-happened” crowd. "
Why do anti gun nuts have to create this ficticious segment of our society in order to discuss/debate this issue? (rhetorical)
Guy_Forks 9 months, 2 weeks ago
"Nobody is shot by someone who does not own a firearm."
If someone steals a car, does he then own it? Of course not. You attempt to suggest that law abiding citizens are solely responsible for all gun crimes is as obvious example of lack of critical thought
"To them, their rights are more important than the rights of people to go see a movie or pick up a snack at a convenience store."
Here you first suggest that there is a right to free be of sorrow, and that this right should negate the right to self protection. This is a fine example of a poor understanding of just what a right is.
The same ignorance was displayed by the confederates not too long ago to justify slavery.
fugitiveguy 9 months, 2 weeks ago
"My contention is that the pro-gun crowd does not want to even enter a discussion on ways to help reduce gun related crimes."
I wonder what percentage of violent crimes involving firearms are committed by persons legally permitted to carry them? My guess it would be very tiny (I mean voter fraud tiny). Therefore how the hello would more laws help the situation?
JD 9 months, 2 weeks ago
I thought this issue was so hashed out in the last week that we'd never see another comment about guns in the Pilot.
Have you seen today's national travesty? The conversation is about to come up again.
JimRussell44 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Fugitiveguy, regarding the concept that legally armed patriots in the movie theater would have prevented the slaughter: It is not the anti-gun crowd perpetuating this line of thought. It is what the gun owners are claiming. Nice try in attempting shift the responsibility on this one.
JimRussell44 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Fugitiveguy: "I wonder what percentage of violent crimes involving firearms are committed by persons legally permitted to carry them?" I have no idea and what difference would it make? When you get shot, your first question is not: "Are you licensed to shot me?" I know one thing for 100% certainty. Gun crimes are not committed by people who don't have a gun. And so the question remains: If more laws won't help the situation, what will?
JimRussell44 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Guy_Forks: You are not using "critical" reading skills. I am NOT saying that gun owners are solely responsible for gun crime. I AM saying that gun owners should be at the forefront of trying to find ways to reduce these crimes. As for your comments concerning the freedom to attend a movie or enter a convenience store, I have no idea what you are trying to say because of your "poor understanding" of typing skill. And the only relevance "slavery" has to this discussion is how this country has become a "slave" to firearms.
JimRussell44 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Today, we have yet another massacre carried out by a "finger flexer". It was the third item on the local six o'clock news. Why do you think that was the case?
skylinefirepest 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Since laws have probably never stopped a crime, Jim, what exactly did you have in mind? I don't know and I admit it!! Every time some travesty occurs there's always a fringe that wants more laws, and more laws, etc. Only laws don't stop crimes. So exactly what argument are you trying to start here? If we could write some catch- all law we wouldn't have any crime, now would we?? Then per our last exchange you wanted the NRA to get active trying to find a solution...to a crime that I don't know that there IS a solution. So apparently you are not interested in commenting back and forth on a subject without trying to start an argument. If there was a solution then our know all, see all, government would have already implemented it, now wouldn't they?? You wanted, as I took it anyway, to blame gun owners for so called "gun crimes" and wanted us to be proactive and suggest some kind of new law and as I see it, THERE ISN'T ONE. So my end feeling is that you simply want to try to transfer the responsibility for crazy people using guns, cars, bombs, etc. to kill people onto the back of the law abiding, and I ain't buying it!!!
fugitiveguy 9 months, 2 weeks ago
"Gun crimes are not committed by people who don't have a gun."
Yes, and I guess no one would be killed by a drunk driver if they didn't have a motor vehicle. There is no truer statement than "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns". Youtube is full of videos where law abiding gun owners have stopped potentially violent criminals for good. Also a true statement "when you need help in seconds, the cops are only minutes away" and that is not meant to be a slap at LEO's who I hold in high regard.
fugitiveguy 9 months, 2 weeks ago
"regarding the concept that legally armed patriots in the movie theater would have prevented the slaughter:"
there is as much evidence to support such a concept than to refute it, I doubt it could have prevented it, I am confident the death and injuries would have been a lot less. When it comes right down to it, all we have are opinions and they differ. I just would have liked those who were massacred to have had a chance, as it was they had nearly none. I do not have the irrational fear of legal gun owners that so many seem to have
fugitiveguy 9 months, 2 weeks ago
"I have no idea and what difference would it make? "
Its really quite simple. Law abiding gun owners (barring mental illness) are responsible for only a small percentage of gun crime. Take Chicago for example where a dozen murders can happend over a weekend, how many of those guns do you think are legally owned and would therefore be prevented by outlawing guns. So what good would further restricting hand guns do?
molonlabe 9 months, 2 weeks ago
When are all the alcohol consumers going to take responsibility for all the alcohol related deaths on the highway?
Bentpan 9 months, 2 weeks ago
fugitiveguy 1 hour, 54 minutes ago Take Chicago for example where a dozen murders can happend over a weekend, how many of those guns do you think are legally owned and would therefore be prevented by outlawing guns. So what good would further restricting hand guns do? Actually they are already outlawed in Chicago which is why criminals commit crimes virtually unopposed, the unarmed citizendry restricted to calling their protectors (the police) after they've already been victimized.
JimRussell44 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Finally we have an honest answer. Skylinefirepest has stated that there is absolutly nothing this country can do about gun violance. Guess it is something that we will all have to live with...we'll at least some of us will get to live with it. Thank you for your honesty, skyline.
Yukonjohn 9 months, 2 weeks ago
God-forbid, but we may even have one of these situations here in Alaska tomorrow, but I feel safer knowing that many of us are carrying. We do not have one of those "permit systems", you can carry here without a permit as long as you are legal to own a firearm. That is a good thing. If one decides to carry concealed, there are many responsibilities that person must assume, utmost being the fact if they pull out their firearm, they could very well have to use it with deadly consequences. At least that person will hopefully be alive to talk about it and maybe will save other lives. We also have it in our laws that we can protect others with deadly force. It hopefully will make the law-abiding citizen that uses deadly force not have to go through the nightmare they would in most states!!
getreal 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Yawn, Here we go again. Hasn't this been done to death? I guess this area is so boring there isn't anything to do except keep beating a dead horse over and over and over and over............... Maybe when the weather finally cools down a bit we can all get outside and do something else besides sitting in front of our computers.
MikeNC 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Someone once said, "When the Government can guarantee me, that if I give up my gun, no one will shoot me, I'll give up my gun." Diane
JimRussell44 9 months, 2 weeks ago
The dead horse we are beating, getreal, was most likely shot to death.
Diane, I'm almost 70, never owned a gun, and have never been shot at, much less hit. Feel free to keep your gun if it makes you feel safer. Me, I feel safer if I avoid walking under ladders.
skylinefirepest 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Jim, I'm glad you made it to my age without needing a firearm...do you carry fire insurance on your house? Bet you never needed it but you had it anyway, didn't you? That's why we carry...there is no guarantee that we would ever need it or even if we needed it that we could get to it in time...one thing I positively learned in over twenty years running with Robin Sage is that the advantage ALWAYS lies with the attacker. Only the attacker knows what is planned and when it will take place. And I'm glad that you never found yourself in a situation where you would have liked some protection of any kind. In my youth I hitchhiked through the south side of Chicago and made it safely thanks to an old man who picked me up, took me to a better area, and told me that "a white boy shouldn't be in this side of town." He told me I was lucky and that was over forty years ago! I've had several incidents through the years that could have turned nasty simply because of what I was doing...I drove an ambulance in Charlotte years ago and it was dangerous then...not even what it is today! We cannot always control our surroundings so we should be prepared as best we can. But I grew up with firearms and hunt, plink, target shoot, collect, as well as using them for the protection of myself and my loved ones, so to me they are simply a tool, used for good or evil by the user. There's nothing even remotely scary about firearms in law abiding hands. And I'm glad that Diane has a gun and can use it...it's the only thing that makes a hundred pound woman equal to a two hundred pound bad guy, you know!
JimRussell44 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Thanks for your comments, skyline. I appreciate where you are coming from and I respect you for doing what you think is right. I guess we grew up in two different worlds. Had I grown up in a big city, perhaps I would feel as you do. I'm a small town guy. I didn't grow up always looking over my shoulder to see who was trying to get me. I never felt like I needed to be defending myself or to be constantly on guard. Throughout my life, I have lived in metropolitan areas like Charlotte, Baltimore and the Tampa area. My work took me to every major city in the US as well as many around the world. Maybe I've been just lucky. I think that it has more to do with common sense. When you put yourself in certain positions, like hitchhiking on the south side of Chicago, your probability for harm goes up sharply. Your attitude has a lot to do with your chance for harm. If you walk around with a chip on your shoulder, someone will want to knock it off. If you are disrespectful of people, people will be disrespectful to you. All that being said, tomorrow you could walk into the bank and a robber could blow your head off before you took the second step inside the door. I am glad that my wife and I have made it this far. If I get taken out tomorrow, I'll have lived my life the way I wanted to live it, gun free.
Thatcher 9 months, 2 weeks ago
JimRussell44-- I am a gun owner, and I respect your decision not to own one. Your post was very thoughtful and respectful. Thanks for that. Cheers!
skylinefirepest 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Jim, I'm also small town...grew up in Southern Pines. But I have worked in some dangerous places and learned that if you're not prepared you pay for it. I was in training at Chanute AFB in Rantoul, Ill. when I went to see a friend in Chicago and didn't think twice of hitchhiking to get there because of having been brought up around here. That could have been a big mistake. But when you are traveling today if you have any kind of car trouble you are at the mercy of the odds. I never travel without a firearm...and I have one close by even around here. Doing the fire thing here I've learned it doesn't have to be a big town for you to get in trouble...you just rarely hear about it because it doesn't get a lot of media...but ask any local fireman or policeman in Moore County!
JimRussell44 9 months, 2 weeks ago
As a teenager, skyline, I did a lot of hitchhiking all over the northeast. One summer morning I got up and hitched for four hours just to see how far I could get in that time frame, then turned around and hitched back home in time for supper. That was 55 years ago. I would not want to try that today, not because I didn't have a weapon, but because so many other people now do have weapons.
Would you bear with me if I ask what you might think is a stupid question? If having a weapon with you or at least nearby provides you a sense of security, why would it not make sense to carry the weapon out in the open rather than a concealed carry? Would it not serve to deter bad guys with guns if they knew that you are armed? I have heard the argument made by many legit gun owners on these websites say that the more armed people we have, the safer everyone would be. How would pulling out a hidden gun be a better deterrent than one that is visible all the time?
Courseaire 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Because the bad guy just might shoot 1st. Surprise is everything.
skylinefirepest 9 months, 2 weeks ago
Good question Jim, and there are a lot of people who feel that way...I'm of the opinion that guns have been so vilified in the media, schools, politics, etc. that most people feel uncomfortable in the presence of someone who is carrying openly. While it doesn't bother me I do know that the police tend to get antsy when they see someone, even though a criminal would be blatently stupid to open carry. I don't believe in confrontation if there is an alternative. Also carrying concealed allows one to respond to a threat or try to escape...carrying doesn't mean that someone is looking for trouble! I prefer concealed as I am not looking to disturb those around me...while still having the option if trouble arises!