Churches Are Behind Political Correctness

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

Shorter Dwight Creech: "Every church but mine sucks."

This is why we need to keep church and state separate. The next thing you have is not the religious squabbling with the non-religious; it's the religious squabbling with each other. At the recent 9/11 commemoration ceremonies in New York, clerics in New York were complaining that there were no clergymen speaking (though I believe there were prayers); at the one in Washington, there were clergymen invited to speak, but evangelicals complained that there were none of the right clergymen (i.e. theirs). It just never ends.

(There, that should be good for 100 or so comments).

Courseaire 1 year, 7 months ago

OMG - I'm going to have to agree with Dusty on this. I have found that most churches I have been to are just as internally political as Politics, usually to the detriment of the congregation and the message trying to be taught. It's sad.

teufelhunden 1 year, 7 months ago

I agree with you Courseaire. So true. And yes, it is sad.

Courseaire 1 year, 7 months ago

Is the the moon in the Seventh House and is Jupiter aligning with Mars?

geoffcutler 1 year, 7 months ago

Count me in as well. Wow!

irkim13 1 year, 7 months ago

Add me to the ranks.

ProudYankee 1 year, 7 months ago

We can always count on Dwight Creech to lead the march back to the Middle Ages.

teufelhunden 1 year, 7 months ago

Remember "Rev" Wright and the BLT teachings at his so-called "church"? Totally political and totally gross.

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

So you set yourself up as the arbiter of who's a real reverend and a real church now, based on a quick clip you saw on Fox News?

teufelhunden 1 year, 7 months ago

I guess so.

Easygoing 1 year, 7 months ago

Wow, although the letter is extremely difficult to understand his point appears to be exactly the thinking of the Taliban in Afghanistan about the Quran. Next will come stoning and cutting off hands as punishment. Truly primitive thinking.

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

Dwight is explaining it probably exactly like your grandfather's generation believed it. Christianity is a civilized religion.

wrich49 1 year, 7 months ago

There has always been a conflict between THE CHURCH and the people who have to live in the real world everyday. Jesus dealt with the Pharisees and Scribes and told them they were like "whited sepulchers full of dead men's bones." As a Christian, I believe my job is to show God's love to others no matter their race, religion, or anything else. Jesus taught that God is to judge us and that we will be known for what we do, not just what we say. He said the best thing we can do is "Love one another." I'm not sure if this counts as political correctness or not.

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

I must say that I am both surprised and encouraged by the posts of conservatives, so far.

Courseaire 1 year, 7 months ago

We now may have found common ground on which to form a perfect union.

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

well, "more" perfect anyway.

nothingspecial 1 year, 7 months ago

I have found all organizations to have politics that will at time be to the detriment of their members, including churches. And political correctness for sure has crept into some churches due to society's increasing moral relativism.

Arestorer 1 year, 7 months ago

Political correctness is for cowards and liers.......

Arestorer 1 year, 7 months ago

The words SHORT and BALD,,were not created to describe VERTICALY AND FOLICLY CHALLENGED..

teufelhunden 1 year, 7 months ago

Too funny. You calls 'em as ya sees 'em.

Toda 1 year, 7 months ago

denominational churches that have been systematically educated out of the view that the morality taught in Scripture is absolute.

So Mr. Creech is there an asterisk on Calvary Christian's sign? If so, what is in the small print? There goes your pig pickings, no more hamburger cookouts for the school; anyone who has been married before and has a living divorced spouse is in violation of Old Testament. Any of your parishioners who had sex before marriage, or produced children with different fathers - are they no longer members of your congregation? Except those who pay their way to salvation? One who claims to be a man of God, should perhaps clean up his own congregation before taking liberties with other churches beliefs or convictions. I've been married to the same woman for 45 years and counting. How many in your church can make the same claim?

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

Many of those charges reflect lack of study or lack of forgiveness or both.

Toda 1 year, 7 months ago

Read the Old Testament...Hebrews nor Jews eat pork or any animal with a forked hoof. Gluttony is a sin according to Old Testament. Marriage is a sanctity to one woman until death according to the New Testament. Sex is between a man and wife after they take the vowels of holy matrimony. So why not take the Catholic route and ask the priest for forgiveness after you've committed murder. One in the same isn't it? Mr. Creech is on his soapbox preaching about issues found in his own church that need to be dealt with before preaching to the world.

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

Dwight is talking about the acceptance of the scriptures as an absolute guide to morality. I agree that they are. You seem hung up on how some of those scriptures are applied diffent ways by different groups.

I find that the Bible's controversial issues usually have two sides or two extremes. Each side cites "their" favorite verses and ignore the other side. We have to agree to disagree on some things in which we have different personal interests.

Homosexuality and adultery are not one of those controversial issues. They are sin every time. All can be forgiven, not by a priest or anyone else, but by repentence.

I am not familiar with Mr Creech's church, but I am sure that we see some things the same, and some differently. Quite possibly we could still call each other "brother."

The Old Testament worship system was totally replaced in the New Covenent, but as far as I can see, the moral code is the same. I have a friend in another town with a PhD in Old Testament from Yale, but he is not interested in that discussion. Maybe his specialty was more narrow.

The large divide in Christianity is between the modern/liberals who have low regard for scripture and the evangelical/fundamentalist side who see scripture as the inspired word of God. We will never find common ground between those two positions any easier than between a Marxist and a tea party member--somebody will have to convert, or else we keep going our separate ways religiously. (We can still be good friends, neighbors or fishing buddies.)

(Jewish pork eating rules were abandoned in the new covenent--see Peter's visit to Cornelius' house in Acts 10.)

Toda 1 year, 7 months ago

I agree with your comments...I have to make light of Dwight Creechs' dogmatic approach to religion. One who is familiar with the church and congregation could better understand. We have to remember that the King James Version which many churches see as the only true Bible, interpret it as the true and only gospels. One can take passages out of text to make a religious point of contention or support their views. New Age religion strikes in the face of "that old time religion" with many grounded in their beliefs. I take exception to Dwight Creech using The Pilot as his platform to chastise other religions and churches that have different edicts than the little church that's not affiliated with any other churches while having the assumption, their way is the only way to truth and salvation.

honesty2 1 year, 7 months ago

So glad they didn't take the consonants.

Toda 1 year, 7 months ago

O' Mr. Creech I'm still not done with your vindictive comments about other churches. Members of your congregation turn up their noses to anyone who drinks a glass of wine or has a beer, but will go to the Golden Corral and belly up to the all you can eat buffet. Gluttony is also a sin. Should your ushers bring out a measuring tape and a BMI index on Sunday mornings to check "girth" of those in attendance before the feast begins. Turn'em around at the door or widen the pews to accept those who have a desire to stuff themselves as opposed to having a sip of wine during Holy Communion. This Bud's for you Dwight!

sandhillsdogs 1 year, 7 months ago

let me know when you go I'll join you at the Golden

Toda 1 year, 7 months ago

Sorry, I don't eat there...I have issues with cleanliness in restaurants. Children wipe their noses and reach over an eat from the bar, trays have food still stuck to the bottoms...have at it.

Bflat 1 year, 7 months ago

I haven't been there since Lloyd retired. :))

sandhillsdogs 1 year, 7 months ago

Is this the same Mr. Creech who teach citizen to arm them self and be ready to shoot and kill at anytime! Did the Holy Book not teached us "you should not kill"?

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

"Shall not murder" is what the Hebrew says.

Bookman 1 year, 7 months ago

This editorial/ranting is a perfect example of why Church and State needs to be separate.

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

Dwight is out of date compared to modern United States average citizen thinking.

BUT HE IS EXACTLY RIGHT!

I have preached for 35 years, and see exactly what he is talking about. Our founding fathers were of the same mindset as Dwight, and they recognized that the nation could not have liberty and freedom without some religious conviction behind their behavior.

The problem with the modern world (except Islam) is that they accept every other religion on earth as equal to their own, and think we only have different religions because of personal preference of which deity to worship, or how we want to worship.

If there is a true God out there (or in here) somewhere, we can know nothing about him or his desire for us unless he makes that revelation to man. The perfect picture is the handing down of the law through Moses. Through all the subsequent prophets, God revealed his will, and provided the wonders and miracles to prove that it was his message.

The only real question is whether the compilation of many of these messages that we call the Bible is true or not. If it is true, it has to be true in every detail. If it is only half true, then it is a lie. Likewise, if Jesus is not the Son of God and like deity, he is a liar also. But if it is true, then the words of Jesus will be the basis of our judgment, as it claims.

Here is where the modern or liberal theology enters the scene. For about seventeen centuries after Jesus and the writing of the New Testament, the Bible was accepted as the word of God. Then in Europe, just a few years before Marx, a group of theologans decided to approach the study of the Bible in a different way. They called it "higher criticism."

Their basic conclusions were that Matthew did not write the Gospel of Matthew, and Luke did not write the Gospel of Luke. Rather someone copied them from combining the Gospel of Mark with the “Q” document. (Wikipedia shows to see that the men who dreamed up this scheme were mostly men who had already abandoned the faith.)

All preachers must study the “Q” document theory. But when you see that the “Q” document had no history before the 18th century, no old documents, no quotations by the church fathers or anyone else, many dismiss it without further study. That is a big mistake.

Last year I took a closer look. I found no single “Q” document, but about 50 versions, all by different men. But they all have some of the same qualities--no miracles, no virgin birth, no resurrection, nothing that science can’t explain.

When you abandon half the gospels and denounce any miracles, you are approaching pure secular humanism, and discarding the Bible as any authoritarian revelation from God. You go in any direction the preacher wants to go. No absolutes.

This is reflected in churches today who tolerate adultery, homosexuality, and governments (states) who have legalized some of them. Just like Dwight said they would. And it gets worse.

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

The problem with the modern world (except Islam) is that they accept every other religion on earth as equal to their own, and think we only have different religions because of personal preference of which deity to worship, or how we want to worship.

This is a problem? So are you saying Christianity should be less accepting and more intolerant, like you say Islam is?

American Taliban, indeed.

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

Christians are totally tolorant and reaching out to every other religion. But not to recognize their diety or accept their "road to the top of the mountain" as cancelling out Jesus' statement, "I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

Christians are totally tolorant [sic] and reaching out to every other religion.

Some, perhaps. But many seem to define "reaching out" as "forced acceptance."

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

Dwight Creech exposed and ugly divide in the religious world. And caught a lot of grief for it!

Half of the seminaries in the United States teach that Matthew did not write the Gospel of Matthew and Luke did not write the Gospel of Luke. (“Q” document higher criticism.) They effectively make the Bible worthless as a religious or moral guide. Every church has the same Bible, but look at the different teachings out of the same book!

When you read the first few verses of Luke and the first few verses of Acts, it is obvious that the same person wrote both of them. If Luke didn’t write Luke, then who wrote the Book of Acts? All Bible teaching becomes suspect. Nobody reads and studies it.

But the low view of the scriptures seems to be affecting the evangelical or fundamental people who do believe that the Bible is the word of God. Many of them have adopted the same basic teaching on salvation as the modern liberal group.

All evangelicals know that Jesus said that if you love him you will keep his commandments. When did you last hear anyone ask what some of those commandments might be? The discrediting of scripture brings a passive acceptance, but no active pursuit, even among evangelicals.

But most importantly, if God has spoken, where did he speak. The Bible has endured many centuries of examination. Other religions are based on someone claiming to be a prophet or some documents revered by their age but not proven to be from God by content. The Koran provides an example of what God would NOT say about how to treat women and how NOT to spread his religion.

When the modern liberal theologians deny the resurrection of Christ, they have declared themselves to be unbelievers. If the Bible is not God’s direction, where do we find it?

I think we will find that just as many Pharisees did not believe in Jesus, thus denying the revelation of God, they became the same type of unbeliever that today professes to worship God either by his own direction or the uninformed direction of someone else. He will find plenty of company, as this forum indicates, who point to no divine guidance at all.

nothingspecial 1 year, 7 months ago

Well said, Treadlightly.

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle". --George Washington's Farewell Address, 1796

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies" -Thomas Jefferson

Nezumi 1 year, 7 months ago

I love it when religious people scorn superstition

Toda 1 year, 7 months ago

In your opinion...

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

"When a religion is good, I conceive that it will support, itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it, so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -Ben Franklin

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit...

Each of these churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say that their word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say that their word of God, the Koran, was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of these churches accuses the others of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all" -Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." Thomas Jefferson - to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." Thomas Jefferson- to Carey, 1816

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Thomas Jefferson - to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Thomas Jefferson

Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." James Madison - "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" John Adams, -letter to Thomas Jefferson

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." John Adams

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist." Benjamin Franklin

I can keep doing this all night Tready, want to recant your statement, "Our founding fathers were of the same mindset as Dwight, and they recognized that the nation could not have liberty and freedom without some religious conviction behind their behavior."

Yeah, I didn't think so.

Nezumi 1 year, 7 months ago

How have we come this far without a "Life of Brian" quote?

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

"Follow the gourd....", "No, follow the shoe!"

Nezumi 1 year, 7 months ago

"He IS the messiah, and I should know, I've followed a few!"

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

Here's some more from: http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

These are all from Thomas Jefferson

In his letter to Dr. Rush Jefferson is talking about the Christian clergy who were working against his being elected President by saying Jefferson was an infidel. The complete quote says: “The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their (the Christian clergy) hopes, and they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” So we see that in his letter Jefferson is saying that the “tyranny over the mind of man” that he is opposed to are the schemes of the Christian clergy, and the god he is referring to is the god of Deism, not the god of the Christians.

Thomas Jefferson did not believe that Jesus was God, and he said so:

"The office of reformer of the superstitions of a nation is ever dangerous. Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion; and a step to right or left might place Him within the grasp of the priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the Being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. They were constantly laying snares, too, to entangle Him in the web of the law. He was justifiable, therefore, in avoiding these by evasions, by sophisms, by misconstructions and misapplications of scraps of the prophets, and in defending Himself with these their own weapons, as sufficient, ad homines, at least. That Jesus did not mean to impose Himself on mankind as the Son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in the lore." -- Thomas Jefferson's letter to William Short, August 4, 1820

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - "Notes on Virginia"

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

I think we can be certain of one thing, it is that Dwight Creed and Treadlightly, both Ministers, both convinced the Founders wanted the United States to be a Christian Nation, would never vote for Washington, Adams, Jefferson, or Madison, among others.

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

And to think those hyprocrits attended worship services in the Capitol building. For shame!

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

Well Tready, Madison in fact did strongly object to using taxpayer money to pay the salary of the congressional chaplain, but he decided not to make a big issue out of it for political reasons, e.g., he didn't was this to become a major issue in the presidential election between Jefferson and Adams.

geoffcutler 1 year, 7 months ago

Umm...you might want to check your statements against George Washington. There were other founding fathers besides Jefferson.

"When I contemplate the interposition of Providence, as it manifested in guiding us through the revolution, in preparing us for the reception of the general government , and in conciliating the good will of the people of America towards one another after its adoption, I feel myself...almost overwhelmed with a sense of divine munificience." -To the mayor, recorder, alderman, and common council of Philadelphia. Sparks 12:145. (1789)

"I consider it a indispensible duty to close the last solemn act of my official life by commending the interests of our dearest country to the protection of Almighty God, and those who have the superintendence of them to his holy keeping."- Address to Congress on resigning his commission. Fitzpatrick 27:285. (1783)

honesty2 1 year, 7 months ago

http://townhall.com/columnists/chucknorris/2011/06/28/our_founders_vs_nbc_and_new_york_atheists_part_1_of_2/page/full/. http://townhall.com/columnists/chucknorris/2011/07/05/our_founders_vs_nbc_and_new_york_atheists_part_2_of_2/page/full/ and more: “July 4th ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.” John Adams “In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity…” Treaty of Paris “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil governemnt and principles of Christianity.” John Quincy Adams “Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.” “In God is our trust.” Star Spangled Banner “Let us not forget the religious character of our origin.” Daniel Webster “If we ever forget that we are one nation under God…then we will be a nation gone under.” Ronald Reagan During the Revolution, Congress resolved to import 20,000 volumes of the Bible because “the use of the Bible is so universal, and it’s importance so great.” Continental Congress 1777 (samurai post)

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

So much for the tired old trope about the Founding Fathers being religiously correct enough for the modern right wingers.

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

Come to think of it, our country is getting to be a much more moral and pleasant place to live, now that we have put God out of the way. In many neighborhoods, 9mm is plenty large enough to get you safely to your house. (Still those nagging few where .45 caliber is more appropriate...)

And I love those lovely social networks for the youngsters. One lovely little group put Cripps blue enamel on my newspaper box, sidewalk and front window. The chief assured me it was just some kids with too much time on their hands.

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

Hey, if they'd been on "those lovely social networks" they'd be inside and not godlessly painting your house. BTW, what's the difference between Cripps [sic] blue and just blue?

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

One is a gang symbol, often put on their bullets as well, and the other is what football and basketball fans in our state wear.

Our friend's daughter in Rockingham was shot and seriously injured by some gang members out of Charlotte. (A few years back.)

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

"dupe" removed

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

"dupe" removed

Nahhh, too easy.

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

Crips blue is used by the Crips gangs, even on their bullets. The other blues are used by football and basketball fans.

The daughter of our friend in Rockingham was shot and seriously injured by a gang which was later arrested in their home city of Charlotte.

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

TO THE PILOT NEWSPAPER:
Why did my posts not appear after posting?
Then why did they come back when I put it back? Will it disappear again? Does anyone else have this problem?

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

It's part of The Pilot's insidious campaign against you.

nothingspecial 1 year, 7 months ago

Highly recommend David Barton's, American Heritage Series, a 10 disc set of 26 documentaries by Mr. Barton about our Christian American heritage, the first 7 discs of which describe our rich heritage of Christianity in this nation's founding and development. That of course does not discard the ideas or rights of the number of Americans who choose to follow some other faith or none at all, including some of our founding fathers.

Separation of Church and State is a vital part of our American Heritage too. It has been much abused during the past 50 years from where it was best expressed by Thomas Jefferson, in 1786: “[No] man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened [sic]...on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion".

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

Rather that the present attitude that we can not practice our faith in public, lest someone be offended. That offends me.

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

Of course you can practice your faith in public. Are churches meeting in basements or catacombs? When you bow your head before meals in a public restaurant, do the Religious Police come and haul you off?

You just can't make me listen or participate, and you can't use my tax money to promote your faith. Sorry if that "offends" you, but the Founding Fathers knew what they were doing, having seen the result of government picking sides in religious matters.

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

By "in public," you mean inside my own church builing?

Can I stand up beside my table and offer my prayer orally for the whole table?

Was I wrong to offer the prayer before the high school football games many times in another town, because often the local ministers did not attend when it was their turn?

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

Why are you so obsessed with "offering your prayer for the whole table"? Do you think if everyone around you can't hear your prayer, God doesn't either? Do you need to pray for a big crowd? Does prayer have to be a communal thing with everyone participating to make you feel heard?

JER 1 year, 7 months ago

The "Golden Rule" folks are always accepting members. No dues, no special buildings, no complicated rules, no leaders, just followers.

JER 1 year, 7 months ago

"Simplify, simplify." Henry David Thoreau.

Roorke 1 year, 7 months ago

''For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at the truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.'' Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death March 23, 1775 By Patrick Henry

MikeNC 1 year, 7 months ago

Excellent article Mr. Creech. And excellent follow ons by TreadLightly and a couple others. For those who say they do not understand what is being said; they either do not want to understand, pretend that they do not understand or are just too young to be able to correlate what is being said about today vs. yesteryear in our country. They will someday see and understand. It does become obvious that some would not only prefer the seperation of church and state; but a complete seperation of Christianity from our country....Mike

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

Part 1

O.K. Geoff, here are some non Jefferson quotes:

Re John Adams: "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." - letter to John Taylor . "The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?" . ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." . Re George Washington:

Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]

Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15]

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." - letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

TreadLightly 1 year, 7 months ago

Yes JMT, Christians, especially priesthoods have behaved very unchristian like in the past and continue to do the same today. That causes all the problems cited above, and more, but does not diminish the message or glory of God.

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

Fine. Just don't propagate the "big lie," that the Founders wanted the United States to be a "Christian," nation. If they did, then how do you explain Washington's letter. See below:

Unlike most governments of the past, the American Founding Fathers set up a government divorced from any religion. Their establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves of its origin; they knew this as a ubiquitous unspoken given. However, as the United States delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of the U.S. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the U.S. government to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." http://nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

Part 2

Re: Benjamin Franklin

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -in Poor Richard's Almanac

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." -in Poor Richard's Almanac

Re: James Madison, aka "The Father of the Constitution"

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others." James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN 0-8975-298-X. pp. 237-238 .

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

Want more? I've found several dozen other such quotes.

Those who cite the quotes in which the Founders seem quite supportive of the role of religion in founding and maintaining America always cite "public" pronouncements. The private correspondence of the Framers, for the most part, is where you find what they believed when talking amongst themselves. These were "public" men, they were politicians and paid lip-service to the role of God when making public remarks.

With the exception of fundamentalist/evangelicals ALL reputable historians concur that the majority of the Founders were "Children of the Enlightenment," and either irreligious, or "deists"

MikeNC 1 year, 7 months ago

jimt...Your source document of nobeliefs.com for "free thinkers"...is that your church? You must be a 'free thinker'...how cool. But you don't think for yourself as you can copy and paste all this out of context rubbish which is provided for all you 'free thinkers'. Your a perfect example of those whom wish that our nation had no Christian values and propigate such trash to whomever you can fool. What will you do in 2012 when the two remaining political tables are overturned on you. The people of all kinds have woken up. We have problems in our country, but they are all fixable with the right people and God giving them some direction. You still have a few months left; so enjoy your miserable existence.....Mike

jimt 1 year, 7 months ago

The quotes are the quotes, regardless of the source(s). The out of context "rubbish" is generally the quotes from the Founders that are cited to confirm the erroneous belief that they were traditional Christians (which they decidedly for their time were not) as justifications for the "Christian" basis for the founding of the United States. The rest of your bizarre post simply proves how truly ignorant you are (or maybe you got a bad batch of the orange "acid" at Woodstock and you're having a flashback).

dustyrhoades 1 year, 7 months ago

You still have a few months left; so enjoy your miserable existence.....Mike

Another believer filled with the love of Christ.

No wonder so many people are skeptics.

Bflat 1 year, 7 months ago

Consider these quotes below as the other side of the story that our nation does have a basis in Christianity. The founding father wanted separation of church and government. It is true that some of them did make statements critical of religion and there is documentation that most of the founding fathers did attend established churches. (To the "proof police," be sure to do further research on your own.)

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." --The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." --Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event." --Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." --The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." --The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

Churches Are Behind Political Correctness

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