Making Christianity More Christian
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On the subject of Christianity, Mohandas Gandhi remarked, “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Less known is the rest of the quote: “The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it’s not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time.”
Sixty-three years after the great teacher’s passing, Christianity still has an image problem.
In March 2009, 75 percent of Americans self-identified as Christians, down from 86 percent in 1990. A survey conducted in 2010 of nonchurchgoers found that 72 percent believe in a supreme being.
But the same percentage believe that churches are full of hypocrites; 44 percent find Christians annoying; 61 percent believe that Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists worship the same deity; and 79 percent said “that Christianity today is more about organized religion than about loving God and people.”
Enter the Wild Goose Festival, an event patterned after the UK’s Greenbelt Festival for “people who want to connect with each other at the intersection of justice, spirituality and art.” It was held June 23-26 at Shakori Hills outside Pittsboro. Gandhi would have been right at home. In fact he was everywhere, featured prominently in the program and on the website, and he was easily the second-most-quoted figure among the speakers.
Those speakers included some of the most prominent progressive Christian figures in the country. Among them were Jim Wallis, author of “God’s Politics” and head of Sojourners; Richard Rohr, author and director of the Center for Action and Contemplation; and Brian McLaren, author of “Naked Spirituality” and “A New Kind of Christianity.”
John Dear, Jesuit priest, author and relentless peace activist, gave witness. North Carolina NAACP President Willam Barber shared his experience in working for justice in North Carolina. Shane Claiborne, founding member of The Simple Way, who worked with Mother Teresa for 10 weeks in Calcutta and spent three weeks in Baghdad at the start of the Iraq War as part of Christian Peacemaker Teams, spoke passionately about grace.
Frank Schaeffer, author and filmmaker, shared his journey from prominent traditional evangelical preacher through an estrangement from faith and ultimately to a more progressive understanding of belief.
Paul Knitter, professor of theology, world religions and culture at Union Theological Seminary, shared the synergistic effect Buddhism has on his Christian faith. Abdullah Antepli, Muslim chaplain for Duke University, imparted a greater appreciation of the overlap of Christianity and Islam. Knitter and Antepli teamed up with Rabbi Or Rose, associate dean of Hebrew University, for a panel comparing and contrasting the three major Abrahamic religions.
There was a lot more. Between the main stage, the speakers’ tent and the geodesic dome, as you were enjoying one speaker, you were missing two others. And there was music, with Michelle Shocked, David Wilcox and Beth Neilson Chapman among the most notable performers.
What I left with was the possibility of … what?
In theology, as in every aspect of life, liberals stand befuddled as the most extreme conservatives define us. Ann Coulter wrote a book about it, called “Godless: The Church of Liberalism.” (Holy slander!) Instead, we’re hearing terms like “progressive Christianity” or “emergent Christianity.”
It’s more like re-emergent Christianity. It’s less about commandments than beatitudes — Christianity as practiced by James Reeb and Martin Luther King, by Agnes Bojaxhiu (Mother Teresa) and Desmond Tutu. It’s a theology of love — not the noun, an idealized emotion, but the verb, the things you do. It’s less dogma and more action.
It respects other traditions and believes that there’s more potential in raising each other up than in shooting each other down. It is the courage not to leave the right thing undone.
The Wild Goose Festival was about the re-establishment of a Christianity that Gandhi and Christ might recognize — a church for the unchurched.
Kevin Smith lives in Aberdeen. Contact him at kevinasmith@gmx.com.
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Comments
TreadLightly 1 year, 10 months ago
Kevin, I am glad to see you interested in spiritual pursuit. I too wish that all Christians were perfect reflections of Jesus Christ. Too bad we are human.
I am sad to hear you drifting from that one source of information that furnishes 99% of our knowledge about the Christ for whom Christianity is named.
I don’t know if the general public or the average Christian realizes that “progressive Christians” regard the Bible in the same manner that “progressive politicians” regard the Constitution—great documents for inspiration and nostalgia, but not binding in every detail to modern man. (AKA liberal theology, modern theology)
This is a common testimony from many liberal theologians. Look on Wikipedia under “Higher Criticism” and look up some of the early proponents and check their testimony. It is not uncommon to find that “traditional” faith believed that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and the “progressive understanding of belief” often does not. In the process, the whole Bible is no longer inspired word of God. In the old days, they called that “backsliding” or “abandoning the faith.”
Jesus said that if you love him, you will keep his commandments. Nowadays, many have no knowledge of ANY of those commands, yet their preacher assures them that they are heaven bound! (Thankfully, many still prefer the blessing of the Bible itself.)
Kevin, keep the spiritual fervor, but set aside some regular time to read and study in the Bible. It will prove the document revealed by God, just as it claims.
donnie33 1 year, 10 months ago
The 10 Commandments speaks for themselves. If a non-christian or backslider wannabe Christian doesn't understand that they are a sinner with the law they will always be lost or don't care and they love this world.
honesty2 1 year, 10 months ago
Well said. New Age and Spiritualism do not Christianity make. Although there must have been some true Christian speakers and attendees, after looking into some of the headliners of the event, it appears that this was more of a socio-political gathering than a Christian festival.
CaddieMaster 1 year, 10 months ago
Kevin- Beautifully said.
Treadlightly- gag me with a spoon. All dogma and no action.
TreadLightly 1 year, 10 months ago
We agree that action is key in religion. Paul's most complete treatment of the Christian faith, the book of Romans, begins and ends with "the OBEDIENCE of FAITH." So action is not optional.
Nothing new that we don't agree on WHAT ACTION. The figures that Kevin quoted paint a picture of a church town asunder, not to mention the totally UNBELIEVERS.
From Old Testament to New Testament, you find this change: 1. JEWISH RELIGION: You were BORN a Jew, and had to be indoctrinated.
Inquiring minds ask, "Believe WHAT?"
I am constrained by 2 Peter chapter 2 in what I believe, but NO ONE ELSE HAS TO BE, and I don't bug them. Free country. 1st Amendment. Matthew. 10:14
We still all have to live together and all decent religions teach that we must love one another. Sorry if I made that overly difficult.
Arestorer 1 year, 10 months ago
Check out the book titled Un-Christian....thought provoking read..
donnie33 1 year, 10 months ago
Kevin you are right my people who say they are Christian aren't. I see it everyday where I work. I have a Co-worker and he claims Christianity but he is out fornicating. Most people aren't Christian because they are lawlessness. They do whatever they want and they make the faith look bad. Christian don't go out steal, commit adultrey, lie, fornicate, have other gods or make their own god to suit themselves. What is the reason for these so called christians is they weren't soundly saved. They never truley repented of their sin like starting with the 10 commandments which is God's word. They actually repented of the wordly sins that they think are bad towards people maybe for instance when they toilet paper someones house. Was that really bad? If they were showed them the 10 commandments and let them see that they were sinners they would truly understand. They would repent of their sins and get ready for the wrath to come. Most back sliders are promised peace and happines if they excepted Jesus into their heart which is all wrong and it unbiblical and it doesn't work so when the person doesn't get peace and happines when hard times hit they backslide. They were never a Christian in the first place. If anyone has anymore question you can e-mail me at the lawofthelord@ymail.com
Scoot 1 year, 10 months ago
Well said donnie33! As I read your comments it brought some stuff to mind. A true Christian does not have to advertise their Christianity. For instance there is a lady at my work who is constantly bragging about what she does at the church and she is there every time the doors open. At any time of day given a chance this same person will steer away from her job duties and be surfing the internet. This is not allowed where we work. This is simpy stealing, cheating and lying. I don't care how you look at it. Yet she advertises her Christianity. On a daily basis she breaks three of the ten commandments. In my view she is not Christian...........or if she is we don't serve the same God and the ten commandments. It's people like this who makes other word of Christians look bad. I was blessed with determining ones Character so it doesn't take me long to know who is truly serving the God and following the 10 Commandments that I know.
donnie33 1 year, 10 months ago
The modern Gospel doesn't work. Satan changed the way it should be preached. The lady at the well and Jesus and the lawyer. Jesus gave them law and never mention happiness. He changed their way of thinking. Jesus never said let me into your heart and come to my house for a Bible study. He just gave them law. If you use the modern gospel to bring someone to church you get back sliders. If you use the 10 commandments to get the person to see that they are a sinner you get a convert or you don't and no ones is mad but the non convert may evetually become one. You don't know that is why you let God harvest them no followup required and that is powerful the 10 commandments. I can share more about sharing your faith with others without offending people
Cosmo4slice 1 year, 10 months ago
Does Heaven only really wait, for those who congregate?????? Can you be a Christian and never step inside a Church. What about the multitude of so called "Men & Women Of God" who only use the Bible for their own agenda,"Sex, Money & Power" yet people follow them, like a lamb to the slaughter. Look at the scandles with the Catholic church, "Pedophile Priest" yet they try to sweep it under the rug. Extreme Mormans, who want a house full of 14 year old wifes. Rev. Jessie Jackson, Rev. William Barber spewing racist hate. That fool Fred Phelps and his band of loonies from the Westboro Baptist Church, I also want to know, if God is so powerful, why is there so much suffering in the world. Did God create man or did man create God? I had my outs with the church, when I was injured on the job and had very little money comming in. I wasn't giving my 10% to the church. The preacher had the nerve to start preaching, "no matter what, you have to give your 10% to the church." I'm sorry, but my kids come before the church. It's hard to keep the faith, when they are begging for money, yet the preacher has 2 Cadilliacs, 2 homes and never wears the same outfit twice. All through history, Christians have killed millions of people in the name of Christ. For the past 2000 years Christians have been the main believer in Jihad. If your not Christian your not worthy to walk the face of the earth.
donnie33 1 year, 10 months ago
That is the problem with todays church and I understand what you are feeling, but the Christian life isn't what the church says it to be. If you would like to talk more you can e-mail me lawofthelord@ymail.com. Since I learned of true repentence of sin and study the Bible which I understand more now. I was in the same boat as you.
venomousmoose 1 year, 10 months ago
Those examples are exactly why every word and action of those in leadership must be tested with the Bible. Not even the greatest apostles were taken at their word by the Bereans. The Bereans scrutinzed every word that the apostles said and tested it with scripture. The Bereans were considered noble for it. I'm sorry that particular church was so into the money, as many modern churches are, but not all. Tithing is not necessarily a New Testament mandate, as Paul said to give with a cheerful heart that what you are able to. Tithing in the Old Testament didn't necessarily mean giving it to the temple either, the command was that if you were too far away from the temple, they were to sell the tithe and buy food, oxen, even strong drink or wine and enjoy it (Deut. 14:22-26). The tithe is supposed to be a blessing unto you and not a burden. Unfortunately, many churches have made it an unnecessary burden. Your pastor and the rest of the congregation should have helped you in a time of need, and I am sorry that they did not.
Courseaire 1 year, 10 months ago
People are inherently evil and exercise the free will God has given them, Christian or not. “Judge not, that you be not judged” - Mat. 7:1
TreadLightly 1 year, 10 months ago
MOST OF THESE COMMENTS SPEAK DIRECTLY TO THE HEART OF THE PROBLEM!
Many people DO NOT go to church, and have little or no Bible study where a group looks at the teaching, and questions it when needed, either for their own understanding or to CORRECT THE TEACHER. They also alienate themselves from the “body of Christ,” which is the church. (See end of Ephesians chap. 1)
DEEPER TROUBLE… At least half of the seminaries in the United States are teaching that Matthew and Luke were not the authors of their gospels. Furthermore, whoever wrote them copied from Mark’s gospel and the Q Document. This very mysterious “source document” was never known, mentioned or quoted until after 1800. If that is true, that means that half the gospel books of the Bible are FRAUDS, instead of the word of God. If that is so, how many others are frauds?
The only copies of this mysterious “source document,” are from the pens of the men who propose that it should exist, and their many versions do not match each other. This document makes no mention of the resurrection of Christ, or any miracles. Everything that it mentions may be explained by science.
YOU CAN NOT MAKE CHRISTIANS WITH A FRAUDULENT BIBLE.
The PREACHING and TEACHING done by people who think the Bible is a fraud is not producing a large number of people easily recognized as a Christian. And people can see it plainly.
What about the evangelicals? A few of their preachers are either trained in or influenced by this “Q Document” liberal theology. Others are leaving out most of the instructions of Jesus and his apostles on becoming a Christian and living the Christian life.
Blame the MARXISTS, blame the SOCIALISTS, blame the DEVIL, or WHOEVER, it doesn’t matter. The fact is that:
Half the preachers are taught that the Bible is NOT the inspired word of God, like it claims to be. Maybe even that Jesus was raised from the dead.
Many more are not teaching the “obedience of faith” that opens and closes the Book of Romans. Plain language of the Bible is explained away by “theologians.”
EVERYBODY stood by while the government removed the Ten Commandments, prayer and any sign of God from public life. We are paying for that.
WHY MARVEL THAT CHURCH HOUSES ARE FULL OF “TOKEN” CHRISTIANS?
At the same time, there are many very devout and dedicated people in most churches.
WHAT IS YOUR DEFENSE? Find a Bible believing church. Read widely. Study and question. PRAY FOR OUR COUNTRY!
donnie33 1 year, 10 months ago
good luck with finding a church most hold a Christian back who wants to bring people into the faith rather the Church wants to bring everyone to Church to they can save their soul but they can't only God can harvest them. Most Churches don't know how to talk to people about their faith and I do but their not worried about it they just want to hold their hand make sure they are there everyday reading their Bible and then they get a backslider like myself was but not now. I found the right path from this world to the spiritual world and that is repent of the word of God of the 10 commandments understand that I'm a sinner, lust is adultrey and hate is murder and God sees your thought life.
keke 1 year, 10 months ago
"EVERYBODY stood by while the government removed the Ten Commandments, prayer and any sign of God from public life. We are paying for that."
NO. Separation of church and state. That is what our country is founded on. Freedom of religion. We are NOT a Christian nation, anyone who tells you otherwise is selling you something.
venomousmoose 1 year, 10 months ago
Why is it, Friends and Fellow Citizens, that you are here assembled? Why is it, that, entering upon the sixty-second year of our national existence, you have honored with an invitation to address you from this place, a fellow citizen of a former age, bearing in the records of his memory, the warm and vivid affections which attached him, at the distance of a full half century, to your town, and to your forefathers, then the cherished associates of his youthful days? Why is it that, next to the birth day of the Savior of the World, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day? -- And why is it that, among the swarming myriads of our population, thousands and tens of thousands among us, abstaining, under the dictate of religious principle, from the commemoration of that birth-day of Him, who brought life and immortality to light, yet unite with all their brethren of this community, year after year, in celebrating this the birth-day of the nation?
Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon the earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity, and gave to the world the first irrevocable pledge of the fulfilment of the prophecies, announced directly from Heaven at the birth of the Savior and predicted by the greatest of the Hebrew prophets six hundred years before? - President John Q. Adams, Newburyport MA 7/10/1873
venomousmoose 1 year, 10 months ago
The European Colonies in America had all been settled by Christian nations; and the first of them, settled before the reformation of Luther, had sought their justification for taking possession of lands inhabited by men of another race, in a grant of authority from the successor of Saint Peter at Rome, for converting the natives of the country to the Christian code of religion and morals. After the reformation, the kings of England, substituting themselves in the place of the Roman Pontiff, as heads of the Church, granted charters for the same benebolent purposes; and as these colonial establishments successively arose, worldly purposes, the spirit of adventure, and religious persecution took their place, together with the conversion of the heathen, among the motives for the European establishments in this Western Hemisphere. Hence had arisen among the colonizing nations, a customary law, under which the commerce of all colonial settlements was confined exclusively to the metropolis or mother country. The Declaration of Independence cast off all the shackles of this dependency. The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent Nation of Christians, recognizing the general principles of the European law of nations.
honesty2 1 year, 10 months ago
“July 4th ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.” John Adams “In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity…” Treaty of Paris “The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil governemnt and principles of Christianity.” John Quincy Adams “Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.” “In God is our trust.” Star Spangled Banner “Let us not forget the religious character of our origin.” Daniel Webster “If we ever forget that we are one nation under God…then we will be a nation gone under.” Ronald Reagan During the Revolution, Congress resolved to import 20,000 volumes of the Bible because “the use of the Bible is so universal, and it’s importance so great.” Continental Congress 1777 (post by samurai)
Cosmo4slice 1 year, 10 months ago
I got 1 question, who compiled the Bible . Who made the first copy? Where did he live? How do we know that the Bible isn't just a book some dude though up one day, like a novel. There was suposed to be many languages, how do we know the translation was correct. It wasn't like the authors could e-mail the manuscript.
donnie33 1 year, 10 months ago
the authers are named in the Bible. There are some things in the Bible you have to read to understand. Like for example women they talk about women in the Bible and its unbelieveable what they say about women at it is so true. The 10 commandments if we would follow them more marriages would be saved and the crime rate would drop. There is a versus in there about using flowing water to wash your hands unloike back in the day they used a bowl of water to wash hands and we had a lot of women die from infection during pregnancy. I have a lot more to show you if you would e-mail lawofthelord@ymail.com
starbuck 1 year, 10 months ago
What? I read this at least three times... I am still unable to make sense of it.
ProudYankee 1 year, 10 months ago
That might be because it makes no sense.
Courseaire 1 year, 10 months ago
He might be writing in tongues.
venomousmoose 1 year, 10 months ago
The books of the Bible were written by some 40 authors over a span of 1400 or so years. The authors vary in background, some were priests, some rich men, one was a tax collector, some were kings, one was a doctor, etc... With the invention of printing press and now with internet, we cannot fathom needing to memorize anything. Yet, even 100 years ago, people were forced to memorize things. My 100 year old grandmother can still remember a poem she memorized as a child. The important information passed down in the Bible was taught and memorized carefully, and later written down. We have discovered several thousand ancient manuscripts, copies of each book in the Bible. When compared, there is very little difference between all of those copies. That which is different does not change any major doctrine of Christianity. Oddly enough, there are only a few hundred manuscripts of Aristotle and Sophocles' works, yet they are regarded as fact. Hmm over 5,000 manuscripts of the New Testament alone vs. a few hundred manuscripts of Greek scholars...
None 1 year, 10 months ago
At the end of the day on Sunday afternoons, those who tithe the most, are recognized by their churches social structure. It's not really about who prays the most, but who pays the most. $50 K makes for fine accommodations in heaven these days. 10% of nothing for those who are marginal in our social strata for financial giving, doesn't get one honorable mention, or a pastoral nod. I wonder what some stuff shirt congregations would do on any given Sunday morning if John the Baptist would show up on their doorstep after leaving the wilderness wearing his animal skins? => 911 ~ we'll be right there to remove the tresspasser from your property!
None 1 year, 10 months ago
You hit the nail on the head, with the first swing.
SH59 1 year, 10 months ago
I can't believe what I'm reading here. There are no absolute TRUTHS and all life is perception. Religion was designed to give guidance to the masses as a way to put boundaries on people's behavior. The Bible was written long after Jesus died and we all know how information gets distorted over time. There have been excavations revealing writings by Jesus that contradict the Bible such as "heaven is here on earth" and not in an afterlife. People who use the Bible to validate their position in society as better than anyone else just shows how dangerous it is to believe everything as truth. I appreciate the article here, I have never heard of this kind of interpretation of the Bible. It brings Christianity into a more realistic light and possibly something worth looking at. The "CONTROLLERS" here are a perfect example of how manipulative people can get in the name of their religion.
venomousmoose 1 year, 10 months ago
No absolute truth? Here's a test. Take a plant and don't water it. The plant will die without water. If all the blood was drained out of your body and it was not replaced you would die. That's absolute truth. If you are not living, then you are dead that's absolute truth, so your argument that absolute truth does not exist is false.
About the Bible being written long after Jesus died, yes that is true. Does that mean that it is false, certainly not! Today, we don't rely on memorization. Need a phone number; it's stored on your cell phone. Need some information, Google it. There are so many ways to keep and store important information, from writing it in a book to posting it on a blog. In ancient times, important information was passed down in orally. People were careful to memorize details, events, etc...as most could not simply write things down. People were very careful when passing important information along in those days and they would take great pain in getting every detail correct and exact.
The texts used in the New Testament were selected very carefully, they were writings made sure to be those closest to the source. The texts were chosen because of their direct authority. Much literary criticism has been given to these texts to authenticate authorship. There are other texts in existence, but they do not carry the same weight and authority. Many of those texts, the Gnostic gospels were written a very long time after the apostles had died. I believe you make reference to one of the Gnostic gospels, those are unreliable.
How do we know that the texts we have are reliable? Do you believe that Aristotle, Sophocles, and Caesar existed? There are only a couple hundred manuscripts of Aristotle's works that existed today. There are over six hundred manuscripts of Sophocles' works in existence. There are only several hundred references to Caesar that exist from ancient history. There are over 5,000 manuscripts of the books of the New Testament in existence. And as far as the Old Testament goes, they have several thousand manuscripts in existence for every book there as well. In 1948 they discovered a collection of manuscripts now referred to as the Dead Sea Scrolls. They have found manuscripts of every book in the Old Testament and have found very little difference between the manuscripts that were used to translate the Old Testament from and those manuscripts that were found in Qumran. That is quite a feat! Of all those manuscripts, both Old and New Testaments, there are very few disagreements between them. Sometimes there were lines missing from one manuscript, others had words missing, some just transposed a few words. Of the errors that exist, not one of those errors changes any major doctrines held by Christians.
clodfelter37 1 year, 10 months ago
I believe the Old Testament was available during Jesus lifetime as He quoted it several times.
irkim13 1 year, 10 months ago
"There are no absolute TRUTHS" Is that true?
venomousmoose 1 year, 10 months ago
As a Christian, everything we do must be balanced by the Bible. We must either take God at His word or take His word for granted. No the Bible does not give explicit instructions on things like heart surgery, but the Bible does give advise on how to be a good and ethical heart surgeon. The Bible must be our guide, and everything we do must come out of the Bible. The Bible teaches us how to love those who are "unlovely" because we were unlovely before our sins were forgiven. The Bible teaches us that we cannot live up to God's standards on our own.
SH59 1 year, 10 months ago
I don't think everyone needs a rulebook, some of us already know how to love without carrying unnecessary guilt about some sin we're supposed to have acquired.
venomousmoose 1 year, 10 months ago
I don't carry around unnecessary guilt or shame about any sin I've committed. I have accpeted Jesus as my Savior, and He taken my sins upon Himself and forgiven me.
Cosmo4slice 1 year, 10 months ago
Whe he shakes my hand, and heals all the children with Cancer or some other affiction, I might change my mind. If God is so powerfull, why doesn't he show up and put an end to all the suffering & violence in the world. I'm a man of science and work with cold hard facts not myths, legends, magic or junk science. You get to many REMS (Roentgen Equivilant Man) You die and nothings is going to bring you back. Dinosaurs once ruled the earth. Man is constantly evolving. The earth is 4.5 billion years old. The sun will run out of fuel one day. December 21, 2012 is my brothers birthday, not the end of the world.
JER 1 year, 10 months ago
I have just read the article and all the comments posted about it. Need we look any further to see why our country is in the shape it finds itself. Many citizens are completly bonkers. They have made living life way too complicated. They should try simplifying things. Just follow the Golden Rule and treat others as you want to be treated. That covers everything and is really easy to understand. A side benefit is you don't have to pay dues to get in on it.
jamjam 1 year, 10 months ago
that's why I'm simply human. I do things because I'm human. I have no need to fix my life on fairy tales of some mystical god figure. I generally do not call god fearing people nuts because there is too many of them. one could swing from a tree if not careful. I think if they understood you get one shot at life then they would not be such,how should I put this,jackasses.
venomousmoose 1 year, 10 months ago
There is a difference between churchianity and true religion. We need to get back into true religion.
James 1:26-27 English Standard Version (ESV)
26If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. 27Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
ProudYankee 1 year, 10 months ago
Most of these comments truely reinforce the reasons I abandoned organized religion many years ago.
jamjam 1 year, 10 months ago
I've never met a single REAL christian in my entire life. not one lives by their teachings, instead they put more faith in the dollar than their God. give me the example of the good christian. MLK cheated on his wife,
jimt 1 year, 10 months ago
Venomousmoose and his ilk are really beyond the pale. Their ignorance is simply astounding. For example consider that:
George Washington, “In his writings, he never referred to "Jesus Christ." He attended church rarely, and did not take communion too” Source: Franklin Steiner in The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents
“John Adams ‘…was raised Congregationalist, but ultimately rejected many fundamental doctrines of …Christianity such as the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, becoming a Unitarian,’ while still a young man”. Source: Adherents.com website.
Jefferson in his 1782 treatise “Notes on Virginia” wrote: "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." In 1800, prior to being elected President he wrote, "The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”
In a 1774 letter Madison stated, “Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.” In a 1775 address to Virginia’s legislature he argued, “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.”
Our first four Presidents, all key Framer’s, were skeptical, even hostile, about organized religion, not necessarily God, just organized religion because they breed people like venomousmoose and they realize how dangerous they are to a secular democracy, which is what they wanted. In fact, they probably could not be so forthright and be elected to any local, state, or federal office today. Something to think about for those who believe a candidate’s public religiosity determines fitness for office.