Class Warfare Poses the Real Threat to Civil Discourse

As of Saturday, December 17, 2011

To agree and not agree. That is the issue before us today, with the subject being Pilot Editor Steve Bouser’s Wednesday column, “Shoptalk: Scary Words From a Reader.”

In it, Mr. Bouser laments that some of our parents apparently haven’t taught us how to be civil in discourse, and it has gotten to the point where some Pilot readers are unwilling to see their letters in print for fear of unidentified retaliation by other readers.

When Mr. Bouser wished to print a certain reader’s letter, he was emailed this response: “Please do not publish my letter. I ask this out of deference to my wife, who finds the political environment very upsetting and threatening. In recent weeks, I have received two harsh messages that very much upset her, and she worries about a physical backlash.”

If true, this part of the column is where we all can agree. Threats of violence against others’ opinions is wrong. It is the rest of the column, an implication that Republicans (let’s add conservatives) are responsible for these threats, that is problematic.

Our threatened reader, in an email to Mr. Bouser, says about another reader’s published letter in The Pilot, “Where do these people get their information and ideas? I am reminded of an op-ed piece in The New York Times by Thomas Friedman, who wrote, ‘I think America’s broad center understands very clearly that the country is in trouble and the Republican Party has gone nuts.’”

If anyone thinks Friedman is part of “America’s broad center,” then Rush Limbaugh must be a centrist too. Not credible. And if Republicans are so nuts, then you have to ask why current polling data, which includes centrist opinion, has the two GOP front-runners either tied or beating Obama in 2012.

No, here we go again. Like the days closely following the Arizona shooting, when the cause was blamed on Republicans’ angry warfare-type political rhetoric, the left now has Republicans responsible for increasing threats of violence toward progressive liberals.

I’ve been a follower of The Pilot’s website and contributing commenter to the point that my wife has threatened me with divorce. And I can say with confidence that the level of rudeness, even threatening rudeness, is a well-traveled two-way street. Should anyone care to check the veracity of this, they need only surf through The Pilot’s archived website discussions, paying special attention to our liberal Democrats’ abuse of the tea party.

For conservatives’ part in this distasteful dialogue, many are angry right now. There’s no doubt about that. President Obama, after three years of ineffectual and huge government, has essentially left America in financial ruins.

He promised the moon in Keynesian stimulus spending and has nothing to show for it but a lackluster economy, high unemployment, and a ludicrous health care monstrosity hanging over our heads that the Congressional Budget Office has said will cost us another $2 trillion.

But when conservatives protest, or voice disagreement with Obama and the progressive left, they are called racists, Nazis, haters, wingnuts, gun-toting Christian radicals, right-wing fanatics, tea-baggers, fringe conspiracy theorists, closed-minded. What exactly does the left expect would result from this type of taunting rhetoric?

Here’s the really scary part, though. This unfortunate situation is going to get worse before it gets better. The Obama administration, closely allied and supportive of the OWS movement, is playing a very dangerous game of class warfare.

You cannot redefine a nation of people in a country like ours, where freedom means the opportunity through hard work to achieve unlimited wealth, into something where that wealth is now seen as oppressive and unfair to those, who for whatever reason, don’t become wealthy.

History is clear about this. When segments of free and capitalist societies ally with the state to identify the successful as “bad,” and the not successful as “good,” and the property of the successful must then be confiscated, either by punitive taxation or the state assuming corporate control, and that wealth is then redistributed to the unsuccessful, there is going to be trouble.

In the volatile political environment this scene sets, civil discourse is going to become elusive. From all sides, we hope that cooler heads prevail.

Geoff Cutler is owner of Cutler Tree LLC in Southern Pines and is a regular contributor to The Pilot and PineStraw magazine. Contact him at geoffcutler@embarqmail.com.

More like this story

pgericson 1 year, 5 months ago

There is a reason why the Declaration of Independence declares for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness rather than life, liberty, and property. The arguments of the left are more about equality in the pursuit of happiness and not about soaking the top one percent. No one is saying, in any fashion, that successful is bad. Segments of the population, often identified as progressives, are saying that the playing field is tilted in favor of the rich. They assert that the richest segments of society have a greater opportunity to acquire and maintain wealth than their less well-to-do fellow citizens. They would suggest, for example, that the very rich allied with the state to push through substantial tax reductions on dividends and capital gains while leaving the tax rate on interest earnings from savings accounts unchanged. They would suggest that the the bailout of banks, that enabled subsequent mega-bonuses to financial executives, stands in stark contrast to the lack of bail-outs for individuals who own houses that have lost value. When the author states that "history is very clear on this" than he effectively precludes meaningful discussion: he is potentially fueling the very volatility he seeks to quench. The top one percent of Americans doubled their share of national income over the last three decades: is it too much to ask a bit more from this segment of society at a time when our economy is floundering and we have almost nine percent unemployment, particulary when some of this growth resulted from changes in the tax code in favor of the very rich?

ProudYankee 1 year, 5 months ago

wdd, yes there is plenty of blame to go around, so why don't the republicans accept their share of it?

By the way, who is Chris Dobbs??

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

Great column Geoff. For another example, I don't know how you have a civil discussion with a group that promotes the notion that those who support photo id's to vote are somehow trying to keep black people from voting (which would be dispicable if it were true). In fact I would be insulted if I were black as it portrays them as too dumb or lazy to get a photo ID. It is in fact just another blatant attempt by the left to hold onto power at any cost. Painting the right as racist is their oldest trick in the book.

dustyrhoades 1 year, 5 months ago

Classic Geoff Cutler. Rudeness towards the Tea Party is "abuse" and "taunting" Republican rudeness towards liberals is because they're righteously angry.

This is why it's impossible to take your self-righteous preaching about the tone of the discussion seriously.

And fugitive guy: the party that gave us the Southern Strategy has earned every accusation of racism it gets.

moonchild7 1 year, 5 months ago

The problem Geoff is hypocrisy, lies and deceptions. Now, I will of course admit that BOTH SIDES are guilty. It's just that ONE SIDE must shoulder more of the guilt. Why? Because since the Reagan Administration the constant UPWARD MOBILITY of the Lower Classes that began after WWII STOPPED! Laws were changed to make sure that the RICH stayed RICH and would became even RICHER. Okay, that in and of itself is fine except that with that EXTRA WEALTH came a responsibilty that the decisions they made to start new businesses, expand their current businesses or buy-up other businesses would have the residual effect of truely "trickling down" to those who were the nuts, bolts, and gears of said businesses and would keep them going. The tickle down was supposed to be higher wages and benefits. DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!!! I don't care who those business owners were, DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS, LIBERTARIANS, OR INDEPENDENTS, the truth is those profits started to trickle up. I SAW IT!!!!! In CT. in my sisters neighborhood of extremely modest homes(she originally paid $20,000 for her house) they started to those little Cape Cods down so they could fill the small lots with MILLION DOLLAR HOMES! MILLION DOLLAR HOMES!!!! She has one right across the street from her and guess what? The owner works for the top HEDGE FUND in the world! The Real Estate Agents and Contractors at the time were like rabid dogs, salivating and buying those homes up, just to tear them down. Well, it's all stopped, many out of business. And you say that GREED isn't a bad thing?!!! That's where those profits went and that's where this Class War-Fare began Geoff. They have to bus in the LOW WAGE earners to be the cashiers, stock boys, maual laborers and hair dressers for those RICH people still. I think the tree cutters too.

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

"And fugitive guy: the party that gave us the Southern Strategy has earned every accusation of racism it gets."

Coming from the party of Robert KKK Byrd accusations of racism are laughable.

Easygoing 1 year, 5 months ago

Adding no suggestions to end the uncivil discourse, adding fuel to the fire, and accusing the "other side" for all the problems the editorial adds nothing new but rather repeats old accusations and biases. And once again the responses will degenerate into totally off topic name calling. I would have hoped the writer would rise above all this.

bufordsplay 1 year, 5 months ago

who decides what greed is Moonchild? If greed is defined as someone who has more than they need then I have to ask, who are you to tell me how much I need especially if I earned what I have legally? Who decides how much we can have? You? Obama? If the wealthy are not spending their money i.e. putting back into the economy then what are they doing with it? Also, how is someone who makes a million dollars keeping someone else poor? Your whole argument in nonsensicle and embecilic. I find it interesting that the ones who are the angriest are the ones contributing the least.

dustyrhoades 1 year, 5 months ago

Coming from the party of Robert KKK Byrd accusations of racism are laughable

Byrd-baiting - Proving that "Democrats are the real racists" by the fact that Sen. Byrd was a member of the KKK thirty years before you were born

-Wingnut Debate Dictionary

http://stommel.tamu.edu/~baum/ethel/atrios-dictionary.html

PBinNC 1 year, 5 months ago

I just knew some of the columns in today's paper would create some very uncivil comments. The comments start out nicely, then degrade quickly. Perhaps readers need to buy Mary Jane McKittrick's books and let Boomerang and Halley's Comet teach them some old fashioned manners. There was an interesting "debate" on This Week (ABC) where most of the participants were concentrating on the issues and not interrupting one another, and the few in the audience who were allowed to pose questions did so respectfully. It is no wonder nothing gets accomplished in our government that's worthwhile as I consider some of this in The Pilot to be as childish and useless to this country's problems as the current Congress is. I am neither a "Wingnut" or a "Progressive Liberal." I'm just someone who would like to see people get together to solve problems rather than keep slinging mud around. I don't refer to the columns themselves so much as to some of the comments that follow them. People can agree to disagree without all of the nastiness.

moonchild7 1 year, 5 months ago

As defined by Webster's: GREED is a selfish and excessive desire for more of something than is needed. See also: AVARICE & GLUTTONY. Who decides bufordsplay here in America how much someone can have? All of us. We get to have the FREEDOM to decide how much we want and/or need. But when we still have children who are hungry, homeless, without health care or are even parentless, in the WEALTHIEST country on the face of this EARTH then something bufordsplay, is wrong. It's just so unbelievable how a lot of people in this country have NO CONCEPT of RIGHT and WRONG when it comes to the UNFAIRNESS of all the laws and/or legislation that have made the WEALTHthey Y here in the U.S. RICH beyond belief and yet still want MORE and MORE and MORE. The six Waltons (Walmart) have as much wealth as the entire bottom 30% of all Americans. That's called the TITANIC, bufordsplay. Unsustainable, because at some point those bottom 30% or about 90 million people will either give up, mess up or string some others up. The debate on "This Week" had George Will still saying how we need to "LET THE MARKETS MAKE THINGS RIGHT". You've got to be kidding me. The MARKETS have SPOKEN and they say "To Hell with the Middle Class." How are problems ever going to resolve themselves when there still is thinking like that of George Will? That thinking must STOP because it has PROVEN to be DESTRUCTIVE to HUMAN BEINGS. Corporations are NOT PEOPLE. People have SOULS. At least I still think they do.

bufordsplay 1 year, 5 months ago

Thats where you are wrong Moonchild. It is up to me how much I can obtain through my own labor and it is NOT up to me to determine how much my neighbor can have. The most precious form of private property is your incomebecause you trade so many hours of your liberty for it. When you steal my income you are stealing my liberty. RIGHT and WRONG? Taking income which is earned and giving it to someone who has not earned it is thievery. We hear liberals talk about unfunded tax cuts. If it is an expense for the government to let someone keep a little more of their income, then how much is it costing the government to let someone keep any of their income? Income does NOT belong to the government!! Our system has alot of flaws but is the best system yet devised by man for lifting people out of poverty. Go to any U.S. embassy, in any country on any givin day and see the lines of people wanting to get a visa to come here. Then visit the Cuban embassy or the Mexican embassy or the nicaraguan embassy and see how long the lines are. A little socialism is like a little corruption. It never stays little.

nothingspecial 1 year, 5 months ago

Thanks to your wife from us, Geoff that you're still around to provide at least one column every week that always provokes some constructive thought.

This class warfare rhetoric is such a hateful, desperate tactic and has been developed over the past three years in much the same way that all bigots like to develop such things. At its base is a rejection of our way of life by a poisonous crew who doesn't bother to explain to us about how the alternative will actually come about or survive.

Almost hate to break it to them that it is not working:

"That same Gallup poll had even more signs showing that Obama has again misread the American electorate. Asked which entity they thought posed "the biggest threat to the country," 64 percent chose Big Government, while only 26 percent chose Big Business. Other polls released this week support the same idea, that Americans are far more inclined to reduce government spending than to maintain Obama's aggressive, wealth-spreading interventions. Pew found that 76 percent of Americans identify the national debt as major threat to U.S. economic well-being, more than any other issue. An Associated Press poll found that 60 percent of Americans believe cuts to government services should take priority over tax increases when balancing the federal budget. Obama should think twice before doubling down on his bet that class warfare will win him four more years in the White House. These facts make it clear he's out of touch with America."

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/2011/12/most-americans-dont-buy-obamas-class-warfare-rhetoric/2011591#ixzz1gvbDvb70

dustyrhoades 1 year, 5 months ago

http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in-national/california-politician-advocates-assassination-of-obama-and-family

On Sunday, many Facebook users were greeted by the shocking spectacle of a California libertarian and Ron Paul supporter by the name of Jules Manson advocating for the assassination of President Barack Obama. Manson, a failed politician, recently ran for and lost a seat on the City of Carson’s City Council last March.

A screen capture of his post (NSFW): http://www.examiner.com/democrat-in-national/screen-capture-racist-call-to-assassinate-obama-picture

Yeah, let's not forget it's the Democrats who are the uncivil racists....

Bentpan 1 year, 5 months ago

So, Mr Rhoades, you've discovered a lunatic who supports Ron Paul, ran as a libertarian and lost a minor seat and has called for the murder of Pres. Obama. What is your point? Are you trying to say Rep. Paul supporters support the murder of our President. or perhaps that all conservatives are potental assassins. I'm so glad your one of those civil liberals, Afterall as a conservative and a TEA party supporter, I might take offence in your broadbrush labeling were you not such a civil fellow.

dustyrhoades 1 year, 5 months ago

Just the latest in a long line of violent racist nut-balls on the right. But of course, they'll never adress the problem. People like you will never acknowledge that there even is one.

Bentpan 1 year, 5 months ago

dustyrhoades 2 minutes ago Just the latest in a long line of violent racist nut-balls on the right

Funny you should say "nutballs" in july 2008 On an open mike during Pres. Obamas' run for President was heard "I'd like to cut his nuts off" It was directed at the future president and was said by by that respected democrat leader Jesse Jackson, sounds kinda violent to me, as for racist frankly you and your fellow democrats have misused, overused and abused that word for so long now that you've worn out any impact it once had which is a shame because true racism is to be ashamed of, but people like you use the baseless allegation of racism in a venal play to win a flawed arguements daily. It's a transparent, dishonest, not to mention dispicable practice that reduces your credibility to nil.

moonchild7 1 year, 5 months ago

Well, bufordsplay, you just gave the true "Class Warfare" answer that is always used to supposedly make the case that "What's Mine is Mine" and those of you who are having a tough time...well, that's your problem and don't get near me. You're talking like someone who lives, or at least wants to live, on an island. And if you're NOT there now, please go there. The inequities in our Society deem it necessary for our government (because people like you will not help) to TAX those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to earn an income. THIS BOAT WILL SINK IF WE DO IT YOUR WAY!!!!!! Ronald Reagan oiled up those gears in the engine room back in the 80's, to make sure the RICH on those upper decks got RICHER. He made sure that those on the middle decks had to move to the lower decks where we'd drown quicker when the ship started to TILT. Those are the FACTS. There are no lies there and all of the statistics prove them.

jamjam 1 year, 5 months ago

Buforddsplay wrote "The most precious form of private property is your incomebecause you trade so many hours of your liberty for it." you trade your time for wages. if you believe liberty to be a commodity then you have misunderstood history. liberty is something people fight and die for.

jamjam 1 year, 5 months ago

Geoff Cutlers "no spin zone." like most of the pieces he writes, it's one sided and lacks humility.

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

"Proving that "Democrats are the real racists" by the fact"

You got a problem with facts?

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

"Sen. Byrd was a member of the KKK thirty years before you were born"

Interesting, you guys have a statute of limitations for your racists.

dustyrhoades 1 year, 5 months ago

You got a problem with facts?

Not relevant ones.

You realize a lot has happened since 1952? Including Byrd renouncing the Klan--repeatedly? Including the Southern Strategy adopted by the Republicans to win via exploiting racism?

Interesting, you guys have a statute of limitations for your racists.

Those who have renounced it for years, yes.

Anyone who brings up Robert Byrd and his 1940's membership in the KKK to prove that "Democrats are the real racists" in the 21st century has, ipso facto, established that they're a moron. It's as reliable an indicator as dumb-ass TelePrompter jokes.

emb6683 1 year, 5 months ago

SNL's Weekend Update did a good job of defining the poverty line. We must all be living in poverty in Moore County.

Seth Myers: “According to the new census, it is reported that 1 out of every 2 Americans has fallen below the poverty line, which is the invisible line that separates Target from Walmart.”

Courseaire 1 year, 5 months ago

Those that wish to fight based on their socio-economic position in life, party or religious affiliation or actually all belong to the same class: "No Class"

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

"Byrd joined with other Southern and border-state Democrats to filibuster the Civil Rights Act of 1964,"

Apparently his "seeing of the light" took a bit longer than you would have us to believe.

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

"Anyone who brings up Robert Byrd and his 1940's membership in the KKK to prove that "Democrats are the real racists" in the 21st century has, ipso facto, established that they're a moron."

Not meant to prove anything more than that the Dem/Libs are such hypocrites. As for you calling me or anyone else a moron, I really don't give a xxxx. It is your stock and trade as any regular visitor on here knows.

dustyrhoades 1 year, 5 months ago

Well, f.g. I guess since you don't admit the possibility that people learn better, then George W. is still a drunk. And Newt's still a philanderer. Right?

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

"as for racist frankly you and your fellow democrats have misused, overused and abused that word for so long now that you've worn out any impact it once had which is a shame because true racism is to be ashamed of, but people like you use the baseless allegation of racism in a venal play to win a flawed arguements daily. It's a transparent, dishonest, not to mention dispicable practice that reduces your credibility to nil." credit Bentpan

I think this is an accurate summation.

JimHeim 1 year, 5 months ago

The plain fact is that the majority of North Carolinians without photo IDs are African American. This is true in most if not all states passing photo ID laws. That is no coincidence.

These laws are intended for the sole purpose of interfering with American's right to vote. Between requiring pointless identification, limiting voting days, hours and in some states, locations conservatives are attempting to rig elections by reducing participation. Simulations in states with new photo ID laws show dramatic increases in the time required to vote. Long lines discourage participation.

And all of this is to prevent a fraud that is too rare to track. Calling it racist is only the beginning.

Courseaire 1 year, 5 months ago

"The plain fact is that the majority of North Carolinians without photo IDs are African American. This is true in most if not all states passing photo ID laws. That is no coincidence"

If this were true, then they would all be Teatotallers or members of AA.

The_AnonymusProfit 1 year, 5 months ago

Im not even going to bother to read the comments to this one. Im just going to say Mega Dittos Geoff, great article, well thought out, well wrote. there is no Actual way to criticize the article though it looks like a few have tried.

Nice job sir

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/opinion/guest-commentary/andrea-neal-indiana-election-fraud-is-corruption-contagious/article_2071c173-be0d-53b2-bd4e-e4e7fbd31f3e.html

If election fraud is in the news you can just about count on it being on the part of the Democrats. This is of course the real reason they oppose voter ID. Some are just plain dishonest when they try to paint it as racism, others are just so used to reciting their talking points.

Bentpan 1 year, 5 months ago

Stf_Sgt_Viper *Fox News isnt taken serious by any journalist, media, etc. Demographics: 67% of its viewers are right below or above the poverty line, 6% are college educated, 2% own a passport, interestingly enough, that is similar demographics to the GOP" .....Th actual truth Avg age FOX 55.3 MSNBC 55.1, College graduate FOX 44% MSNBC 43% Homeowners FOX 75% MSNBC 70% Median income FOX 53.4K MSNBC 55.2K........It appears Sgt. Viper like so many on the left doesn't like to let facts interfere with him making a point...............BTW Heres my link http://www.nationaltvspots.com/n... Oh and Sgt Viper getting caught in an outright lie generaly has a negative effect on your veracity.

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

"Oh and Sgt Viper getting caught in an outright lie generaly has a negative effect on your veracity."

That horse has long since left the Ponderosa

LaissezFaire 1 year, 5 months ago

The R@D have polarized this country, and until people quit thinking of liberal vs conservative ,and start thinking of Liberty vs Tyranny. Then nothing will change. The difference in the very wealthy and the rest of the population is the result of a power law and is natural. If you upset this natural law of nature you end up with countries like Cuba, North Korea and the fallen Soviet Union.

geoffcutler 1 year, 5 months ago

LaizzezFaire...that comment deserves some further thought, I think. In order for liberals to think in terms of tyranny, they'll have to agree that when the state levies huge taxes on the rich to redistribute to the poor, confiscates property, and segments of society wish for the state to assume control of the economy by corporate control, that there is indeed a problem. So far, the left doesn't see anything tyrannical about that situation, which is why we will continue (and rightly should) to think in terms of conservatives and liberals. The question is, when does Liberalism become Socialism, and how much is too much for America? Yours is an interesting point nonetheless.

LaissezFaire 1 year, 5 months ago

Geoff, Think of a ruler with Liberty being at the 0 end and at the 12 inch mark is Communism, Fascism and what ever else Tyranny calls itself. Somewhere in the middle is Socialism. How much more adding on does it take to reach the 12 inch mark? The Founding fathers knew that the Government was the peoples worst enemy.

Courseaire 1 year, 5 months ago

"now try to have a nice day.... when you grow a pair, learn to stand like a man and be responsible for your own life, have some honor, dignity, self respect, respect for others, let me know... perhaps I wont humiliate, shove you around and pick on you like guys like me did to nerds like you all your life".

Viper - I see you practice what your preach.

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

viper, why do you use the incorrect abbreviation for staff sergeant? I have the utmost respect for those who have served however I am doubting your credibility. Also, of all those who post who cite previous military service, your posts are far away more insulting while making far less sense? Why do you feel the need to take shots at others intelligence, mental health, financial standing when all you have to base your vitriol on is a sentence or two. I am reminded of that age old saying. Better to be thought a fool than to express your thoughts and remove all doubt.

geoffcutler 1 year, 5 months ago

LF- "The government was the peoples worst enemy." Exactly! And who loves government?

dustyrhoades 1 year, 5 months ago

fugitiveguy 43 minutes ago: Why do you feel the need to take shots at others intelligence, mental health, financial standing when all you have to base your vitriol on is a sentence or two.

fugitveguy 57 minutes ago: I think you are giving your intellect far too much credit, heck I am seriously doubting your ability to read at this point.

It literally took me less than a minute to find a quote that shows what a hypocrite you are.

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

DR, I don't suppose you'd have an opinion on what I was responding to, no I guess not.

fugitiveguy 1 year, 5 months ago

post removed at authors request

Bentpan 1 year, 5 months ago

Viper here's your link http://www.nationaltvspots.com/ntvs-networks/ntvs-network it seems i did not copy the entire link on my previous post. I was a soldier, know a lot of vets and current soldiers, I'm going to guess fugitiveguy is probably correct in doubting you've ever served. With your views and attitude, you would not do well in soldiers' company.

LaissezFaire 1 year, 5 months ago

Geoff The people that Love Government are the people that want to control other peoples lives and that includes both parties. The reason they focus so much on overseas is because the Bill of Rights stops a few miles off shore. A vote for a conventional candidate is a slide toward the end of that 12 inch mark. Behavioral Psychologist have found that when people are under stress they ignore other options and just put more energy into what they have been doing even if the results don't work. This is what is happening with every election , they just put more energy into it and get the same results. Then someone comes along with different ideas they call him a nut case. We need to go back to the original model of government, it is more robust.

geoffcutler 1 year, 5 months ago

While Republicans have lost their way, and now recognize they must claw their way back, only one side loves government. If you don't like it, you've got to pick a side. It's all we've got.

dustyrhoades 1 year, 5 months ago

While Republicans have lost their way, and now recognize they must claw their way back,

Unfortunately, the ones getting clawed are the poor and the middle class. That's most clearly shown by the recent blocking by the House GOP of the payroll tax cut extension. From this, and from the oft repeated distortion that "43 percent pay no taxes" (a lot of them don't pay FEDERAL INCOME TAXES because they don't make enough money), it becomes clear that the GOP position is that the poor and middle class need to pay more and the rich less. A real winning strategy, that.

moonchild7 1 year, 5 months ago

There can never be "Civil Discourse" reguarding government and politics as long as one side supposedly so LOATHES said government so much. HATE and LOATHING will never allow anyone to objectively look at problems then solutions to which there are many that need solving. Our government grew at tremendous rates due to the irresponsibility of the polititians as well as to the Private Sector and Corporations. The checks and balances were ignored. We need to start over with a healthier attitude concerning our problems and situations. Then RESOLVE them! Government will have to be the answer in some situations while the Private Sector will have to resolve others. This country has become a Battleground of spoiled rotten infantile idiots....and you know who you are.

Courseaire 1 year, 5 months ago

The answer is to elect out all incumbents (every election). Let's get rid of the bad rubbish and start with fresh ideas every election. This includes the sitting President. Have the Democrats nominate someone instead of Potus & I'll consider voting for that person (seriously).

geoffcutler 1 year, 5 months ago

Moon, where do you see the hate and loathing in the above conversation? The only hate I see is you once again identifying those you disagree with as infantile idiots. You make this too easy!

Interesting editorial in WSJ today about the 99% Democrats in Chicago giving huge tax breaks to the corporate 1% trying to do business there. They get the breaks so they don't take their business somewhere else. Hypocritical? Naw....!

dustyrhoades 1 year, 5 months ago

What the heck is jpb raving about now?

TreadLightly 1 year, 5 months ago

Everyone is missing the issue. A large income gap between the rich and poor will always cause misery and/or violence. (Mostly verbal--it will get worse as the economy sinks.)

The issue: Why do we have a large and growing gap. There are two ways to earn a lot of money:

(1) You are paid what you are worth for your talent, education, experience and marketing ability. My PhD brother is doing well.

(2) You can cash in on "who you know" or other connections that lets you ride their coat tails. This is the essence of "Crony Capitalism" when it involves the government. Many Republicans and Democrats have cashed in on the govenment connection--friends they make passing legislation and contracts they make for the government. Probably more than that throgh the Federal Reserve, which the founders and politicians warned against before December 23, 1913.

The Progressives of both parties have fostered this type of Crony Capitalism, and there is one large piece of evidence that points out the connections:

Congress can not audit the books of the Federal Reserve.

Who believes that? Who thinks that the people who created the Federal Reserve can not see the books? The PUBLIC and the VOTERS can’t see the books. Congress knows what goes on at the Fed.

THE AGRIVATING PROBLEMS When all men had the same education and incentives, some outperformed others and became wealthy. The rest either made a living or became the few that had to be supported by family or government.

These days, both education and incentives are working to enlarge the gap between the rich and the poor. Kids with no incentive and no education are destined for poverty.

EDUCATION: Government schools educate 5 percent of the kids to a very high degree and let the rest slide to various lower levels, assuming that they will earn a living somehow. But kids with NO EDUCATION are destined for POVERTY.

Private schools educate 95 percent pretty well, and some to a much higher level. My granddaughters WILL DO WELL!

INCENTIVES: Welfare in any form undercuts the incentives of many recipients. Many have received help for a short time of need. But when “help” becomes long term, it erodes incentives. Welfare pays better than entry level jobs, if medical is considered.

ADC required fathers leave the home! The kids are already on the road to low income, or poverty. Many will go through 12 years of school attendance, but not get the education to succeed. Some will not be able to read their diploma. Destruction of family has been tragic to our society.

Until the problems of incentives and education are addressed effectively, the income gap and social unrest will continue to grow, and the class warfare will get worse. Only smaller government will put more responsibility on each individual, and that issue splits across both political parties to form two distinct mindsets—the tea party and the teat party.

Courseaire 1 year, 5 months ago

Well said Treads - Merry Christmas to you & your family.

The_AnonymusProfit 1 year, 5 months ago

After reading all the responses to this article. And taking a careful amount of time to think on each response. I have come to the conclusion that this country as we know it is doomed to failure. No one has yet to see the prime reason for the divide between the classes. Taxes have not to do with any of it. Taxes on the middle class are decently low, and taxes on the rich are decently low. Corporate tax being a whole different monster.

You all have all gotten so tied up in blaming each other for the problems of this country that none of you can stop at all to actually attempt to fix anything. No one will take any responsibility for any wrongs. If it was a republican president it was the democrat congresses fault and vise versa.

I am a conservative american. I hold capitalism and the republic of america at the forefront of my views on politics. Having said that, I am not so egotistical to admit that both parties have failed. I am also not so egotistical to realize that both parties have merit.

At this stage of the game unless something drastic happens we will not exist as we once did very soon. We will not lose land or title. We will not lost the name or our documents. We will lose something much worse. Our principles. There are many good things that can be done to fix this economy, but until we start about why the middle class is really failing.. then we are doomed.

The course of events is simple to see, history repeats itself. Our economy will stagnate. Capital driven jobs will leave for other places. More people will lose their homes and jobs, the government will increasingly have to implement new forms of welfare. Our standard of living will slip. We will lose our identity. At this stage 1 of 2 things occurs. The population as a whole becomes angry to the point of mobbish disobedience. The government in an attempt to hold things together becomes increasingly police like. National guards are brought up and identification becomes scary. Our liberties are lost. We then either rebel against this type of rule, or we break down into anarchy and civil war. Disease and famine break out. People die.

This is not a fantasy. This is real.

TreadLightly 1 year, 5 months ago

T.A.P. A big AMEN to the corporate tax issue! (Factory owners have kids to feed too, and China welcomes them.)

I hope you are wrong on the other part, but I wouldn't bet against your picture. Or worse. We have the resouces to rebound, and I hope that will happen when we take off the shackles.

LaissezFaire 1 year, 5 months ago

I'm really amazed at how many people are upset at the difference between the rich and the poor and their constant chatter about it. It's as if there is suppose to be some magical level that it has to be at for everyone to be happy. Kind of like wanting the weather to be sunny each day. Levels can and will fluctuate , and will at times reach extremes. Then if the masses become concerned about it and laws are passed just when the extreme level is getting ready to revert back to the average. Then a politician will get credit for it, enforcing the belief in the cause and effect model. I also don't think it is egotistical to want both of those parties to join the Whig party in history. They have wrecked this country with the blessings of the people.