Debate About Islamic Center Brings Out the Worst in Us

As of Thursday, September 9, 2010

After listening to the simplistic euphemisms of pundits from either political extreme (dealing with the location of an Islamic cultural center near the site of the 2001 World Trade Center tragedy), I am struck by the failure of most of our citizens to comprehend our own history.

Lower Manhattan has been the seat of bigotry and ill-considered speech-a-fying since Peter Stuyvesant ranted about non-Calvinists being allowed to settle nearby. When in 1645 a small Jewish congregation built one of the first synagogues near the tip of the island, the locals became almost apoplectic.

Particularism (the favoring of one's own system of beliefs and ancestry) has been popular since the Ionians thought the Dorians "looked funny" and long before Sparta took on Athens over the Peloponnese.

Karen Armstrong, a savant/historian of the Abrahamic faiths (the three monotheistic, common-origin religions of Judaism Christianity and Islam), writes about the Axial Age, beginning around 600 B.C., when Socrates, Confucius and Buddha all were alive.

She notes that in that age, humans gave birth to most of the world's current religions. They have fought for individual supremacy ever since, in all parts of the world, each believing they owned/believed in the sole right way.

When the Founding Fathers of this nation discovered the multiplicity of beliefs among themselves, they went out of their way to inscribe/dictate into our Constitution a guarantee of freedom from governmentally induced preference for one over any other. It has been tough sledding ever since.

In this Land of Enlightenment, many of our presidential candidates have been "labeled" (at one time or another) as Catholic (Fremont), Jew (Roosevelt), Muslim (Obama) - none correctly, and not as a descriptor, but as a term of derision.

It is always easier to be simplistic (some of the politicians among us - most notably Newt Gingrich recently - adroitly attributed al-Qaida's actions to all Muslims) than to be thoughtful, careful and explorative in one's quest for "truth."

A college roommate of mine has made his place in the universe by teaching those of different belief systems how to work together to make a better world for each other and the rest of us. Plowshares Institute says there are no easy solutions to "difference" - and only with reconciliation through justice can the benefits of everyone's belief system coexist without harming each other.

Nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002 by the South African Parliament, Plowshares helped solve the apartheid disaster; its members work today in Indonesia, the country with the largest Muslim population in the world, and the scene of several horrible bombings of Christians by others.

They bring those of disparate beliefs into the same arena and teach them how to have respectful dialogue, coming to conclusions of mutual benefit. It is a long, arduous process with much give-and-take. The shouting of slogans is not permitted and all must be heard.

If it hadn't worked in so many different locales for the last two-plus decades, no one would believe that "talk" could resolve these kinds of differences. But it does.

The placement of a center for Muslim culture should be near a site that demands discussion, understanding and respect for the beliefs of both sides. Please turn off the silly talk-show, media-hyped, Internet-squawking -simpletons and listen to reasoned, interesting discussions of hard problems by those who have lived and studied many varying points of view.

Try to think of solutions that appeal to those of different beliefs, and try to understand from whence comes the -vitriol and sincere confidence in -diametrically opposed conclusions upon which each side draws. Until one has seen the situation from the other group's viewpoint, long-term resolution will elude us.

I believe we need places in which -honest, interested persons can engage in thoughtful discussions to ease the tensions that will otherwise spiral downward into armed conflict, as they have consistently in all past generations.

Vertrees Hollingsworth is a retired naval officer and physician living in Pinehurst.

More like this story

teufelhunden 2 years, 8 months ago

Prometheus- "If tax dollars were used to fly some Baptist representative to spread the precepts of Christianity there would be no end to the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the offended "liberals" complaining about the dangers of the coming "right-wing theocracy."

Oh how true. How true.

Ross 2 years, 8 months ago

"Is that why the State Department is using tax dollars to fly Imam Rauf around the Middle East to promote Islam? "

I expected better from you .....

"The department said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf will get a daily $200 honorarium for the 15-day tour to Bahrain, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, which is intended to promote "religious tolerance". (not islam)"

BTW - The State Department had said it was his "third" trip.

"Crowley said Rauf had traveled twice to the Middle East in 2007 during the Bush administration"

I'll just bet you were a picture of indignation when you found this out about bush.......smiles!

JER 2 years, 8 months ago

It will be fun to see how peace and tranquility will replace all this bickering after the November elections.

BigE 2 years, 8 months ago

connor1: What makes you a bigot is that you group all people of one religion in to one bucket as all being the same. For example, I'm pretty confident that not all Muslims consider the attacks on 9/11 as their "greatest victory on American soil." Are all Jews obsessed with money? Do all African Americans like fried chicken? Are all Italians in the mob?

mcg2010 2 years, 8 months ago

You cannot blame an entire RELIGION (and get over yourself, it is a religion.) and faith based group of people for the misguided actions of one small group of people. Just like you can't blame Christian radicals for all of the horrible things that have happened in history in the name of the church.

‎"But one thing is definitely true: if we ask our leaders to start dishonoring the freedoms that make this country great, the terrorists surely will have won. "

You should read this. And yes it's from a comedy-based website. It still makes more sense than half of what is spouted out in these comments.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-reasons-the-ground-zero-mosque-debate-makes-no-sense/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+CrackedRSS+(Cracked:+All+Posts)#ixzz0xIOdmFTZ

BigE 2 years, 8 months ago

Bassman: America is free and available. I don't think there is anyone to take it back from. Unless of course, the America you are talking about doesn't allow woman to vote, treats Indians as savages, and African Americans as slaves. Is that the America you want back?

JER 2 years, 8 months ago

America will be "taken back" in November by the same group that got it into it's present condition. Can't wait to see what they will do with it.

fugitiveguy 2 years, 8 months ago

America will be "taken back" in November by the same group that got it into it's present condition. Can't wait to see what they will do with it.

What is so hard to understand that Dems have been control for 4 years. While they cannot wholly be responsible for the current situation, to act as if they are blameless is laughable. They have controlled the pursestrings for 4 years. I cannot figure out if the libs are that gullible or just being dishonest.

FaithinUSA 2 years, 8 months ago

BigE says...

BigE..I resemble that remark!

BigE 2 years, 8 months ago

Bassman: "They" (the radicals, not all Muslims) are coming. It is just a matter of time. In this country we have short term memories. We poop on people/countries and then just move on and think, "They need to get over it. It was a long time ago. We don't do that sort of thing anymore." Well, folks with a grudge or who think they have been wronged don't let go so easily. It's unpopular to say American policy contributed to issues in the Middle East or to 9/11, but I think it is naive to think conflict is a one sided affair and that we are total innocents.

Regardless, a lasting peace needs to be negotiated thru diplomacy. Obviously, wars and antagonistic language never resolve anything. No matter how much some Americans would like to bomb the Middle East into a parking lot, that is not a solution. Heck, I'm pretty sure our wars have done more to fuel (radical) recruitment than they have in turning folks to our way of thinking. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Peacenik, there are times when military action is appropriate, but sticking up for your daddy and attacking Iraq was not the answer.

Just for one moment, but yourself in the other guy's shoes. For example, what if Iran took out our President and bought the White House for a tyrant would we ever forgive them?

TinMan 2 years, 8 months ago

FYI...

Obama is not Muslim! He is a firm believer in "Collective Salvation" which primary belief is that America is the oppressor and Islam is the victim. Look up Michael Flagger.

JER 2 years, 8 months ago

fugitiveguy: Oh, the country only went to hell in the last four years...sorry, didn't realize that. The ball is back in your court in just two more months and your clock starts ticking then.

TinMan: I thought it was the scarecrow who didn't have a brain. Anyway, I think you mean Michael Pfleger, a catholic priest from Chicago. I did look him up and found no mention of "Collective Salvation" in his bio. The guy who does do a lot of talking about it is your personal messiah, Glenn Beck, so I am considering your source when I read your post.

kiki 2 years, 8 months ago

Vertrees,

Thank you for your thoughtful article! As you can see from some of the posts we have a long way to go . . .

kiki 2 years, 8 months ago

The most concerning belief in our country today, to me, is the "America, love it or leave it" or maybe better put "my way or the highway". What concerns me is that this same outlook is what terrorists, today and in history, espouse . . . “al Qaida, love it or leave it (or I will just kill you)” or “the KKK way or the highway (tree limb)”. If people truly believed the message of Glenn Beck last week of “restoring honor through a recommitment to God and the ideals of our Founding Fathers” the idea of God might vary but usually, from a Christian perspective, we were taught forgiveness, love, and to care about all people.

Whether you admit it or not, even the Koran teaches peace and love. Yes, there are people that twist the words in the Torah for Jews, the Bible for Christians, and the Koran for Muslims for their “profit”. They feel that they “profit” from wiping out those that do not follow their beliefs. This has been happening for thousands of years on all sides but basically these groups of people are good people trying to get to everlasting life in a way that they believe. Even Buddhists and Hindus believe in good acts so they will be reincarnated in a better caste. Atheist may not believe in a higher power but most focus on natural law (respect for humanity) or something similar to the “golden rule”. The great majorities of people are good and want to live side by side. It is when we let our insecurities get in the way where we can’t convince the other to believe what we believe that it gets ugly.

Our founding fathers created a place where the multiplicities of people could live side by side and we have been working for over 200 years and have yet to achieve it.

Politicians will come and go and each political party that is not currently in power threatens to “take back America”. I am not sure what that means, but we have America. America is what it is, but until we can “Understand, then be understood” (Blanchard, I think) changing the talking heads at the top won’t change that, “We the People” have to change.

BigE 2 years, 8 months ago

Pro-man: You seemed to reach pretty far from the general nature of my comment to the specifics of that reference. My words are fine on their own without extrapolation.

irkim13 2 years, 8 months ago

I wonder if a Muslim Cleric burned a bible publically, if the world would care (other than Christians) and if Muslims around the world including those in the military would have to worry about radical Christian retaliation, riots and such?

irkim13 2 years, 8 months ago

Let me say I believe this man in Florida has it all wrong, I do not believe burning what a group holds sacred is a good way to show them the Love of Jesus. No matter the motives.

kiki 2 years, 8 months ago

I am confident you can find similar quotes in the Torah and Bible. Just look at Revelations. I am also confident that you can find many quotes saying the opposite in all three books - love and reconciliation.

Religious people have to constantly defend the out of context, negative comments that are quoted from their "divinely inspired" text. I do agree that there are many folks in all religions that take these comments to heart. Just look at the KKK, a Christ centered organization, but I do not feel that these outliers or fanatics are the norm or majority of their faith.

I would challenge anyone to look at the whole message in all groups and not quote limited sections just to prove their point.

BigE 2 years, 8 months ago

Pro-man:

"... just parroting the mandated leftist mantra, though."

As you like to say, wrong again. I am not a Democrat and have no idea what the leftist mantra is! LOL.

"Or you can just keep defending the barabarism because of your 'Americans deserve it' claims."

Really? Using quotes around words I never typed? You may want to look in the mirror and reconsider your high opinion of your debating skills. Tsk, tsk.

Also, and I know you just hate being lectured by the lesser people, but you need to stop getting lost in the minutia; you are missing too much and making too many mistakes in your analysis/rebuttals. Take a look at these discussions from a more macro perspective it will allow you to elevate your guy and play with the big boys.

Then again, when you... ignore and move on, it really doesn't matter, does it?

kiki 2 years, 8 months ago

Promo,

Why the name calling?

I see no reason to respond to your posts because you do not seem to be able to have a discussion. You just seem to want to pontificate and anyone that is not of your like mind is wrong.

Enjoy . . .

Ross 2 years, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

TinMan 2 years, 8 months ago

@JER Try James H. Cone, Jeremiah Wright, Richard Pfleger

Collective Salvation = liberation theology

JER 2 years, 8 months ago

TinMan: I'm sure you have a point, but it just might be that oil can hat of yours. So you don't like Obama, you evidently don't like black religious figures and you disagree with several different religious points of view. Has it yet dawned on anybody that we have met the enemy and it is religion. The business of religion has so thoroughly enveloped this plant that we've become like high school pep squads: " Our god is red hot, your god ain't diddly squat". There are a few of us that have unplugged ourselves from the god business and, let me tell you, when you stand back and look at the rest of you "acting christian", it's down right sad and pretty scary. Vote for your favorite candidate in November and again in 2012, but do yourself a big favor and get off the religion soap box.

nothingspecial 2 years, 8 months ago

I see this commentary, which seems to be another of a long series of enlightened explanations that basically tries to explain how if EVERYONE could just be a little more bright and a little less bigoted we could all get along just fine.

I've heard for the past few weeks appeal after appeal, for the rights of the Muslims and how abused Muslims are by us about this Ground Zero center.

Excuse me, I'm one of the ignorant ones, but could someone send me some references, links or broadcasts by the WORLD's Muslims -not just this guy building the place - denouncing what we're doing and how bad and wrong we bigoted, ignorant Americans are? Really, this is a question. I'm seeing something back in 2007 on the web. Is that all?

kiki 2 years, 8 months ago

Prometheus,

I apologize for referring to you as "P". I did not intend any offense. I was attempting to follow what seems to be a common practice on this and other sites of a friendly nick name. No offense intended.

Again, I see no reason to respond to your comments. You seem to be an intelligent person that feels as though you have all the correct answers. This leaves no room for conversation or discussion. In your posts on this topic and others, you seem to only pontificate regarding your perspective and then attempt to insult the intelligence of anyone that disagrees with you.

Cheers!

kiki 2 years, 8 months ago

Prometheus,

Thank you for your response!

I guess after reading several of your responses over the past week I would have to disagree with both of your assertions that you do not act as though you have the "correct answers" and that you are not insulting in your responses. I can't comment on your intent since only you know your intent but I feel I can comment on what I read and other poster's responses to your comments.

Let me share with you one simple example . . .

You stated in your last response to me . . .

"If you want to discuss, as you claim you do, I will - but you need to prepare yourself first. You don't know the subject material. You know only what you have heard from politicians and their mouth-pieces reading "news.""

This comment is condescending and insulting! It states blatantly that I don't know the subject matter. The comment also appears to assume that I get all my "knowledge" from politicians or "talking heads" on supposed news channels.

You make this comment without knowing if I am a biblical scholar or some putz off the street. I am neither! I consider myself an intelligent person with degrees - BA, MBA, EdD. I also have also learned many things from my life experiences. I have traveled the world - 5 continents. However, the most important thing I have learned during my educational path, my years on earth, and my career is that "the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know". My education and life experiences have brought a sense of humbleness to my outlook.

I appreciate your comment about seeking the "correct" answer but I have found that in order for me to get to the truth I have to approach a situation with an open mind. I do attempt to seek the truth in all things from politics to religion to economics etc. I have also considered that there may not just be one "correct" answer but a "best" answer from a few good options. That is why I enjoy an honest, thoughtful, respectful conversation or discussion . . . I get an opportunity to learn.

I also have appreciated your comments on Kensyian economics and for the most part agree with your assertions but what I have found most troubling in your discussions of religions, economics, political parties, etc. is not so much what you say (sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't) but how you say it and how you seem (my perception) to place a wall of "facts" up front instead of engaging in a fruitful conversation.

I hope you will truely hear the message here . . . Thanks for listening!

kiki 2 years, 8 months ago

Prometheus,

You continue to prove my points . . . thank you!

I guess we just disagree!

Cheers!

Ross 2 years, 8 months ago

TinMan....... a more fitting name for you would be "Scarecrow"

teufelhunden 2 years, 8 months ago

The threat will continue to grow whether we choose to acknowledge it or not. There's a FACT for you...

kiki 2 years, 8 months ago

Prometheus,

I agree that some on this site attack you in very venomous, spiteful, and hateful ways.

My perspective is that some of this you bring on yourself based on the attitude of your posts . . . some of it is that your reputation precedes itself from your previous posts. . . some of it is just people responding in an anonymous way (people feel power in anonymity).

It is also true when you speak in absolutes, others are insulted, offended, and feel a need to lash back.

I have a sense that you are a smart enough person to know that when you push others, they will push back . . . especially in anonymity. Because you have chosen your approach to discussion (only one right answer) you will continue to get push back. My comment is that with this approach you tend to alienate yourself and not draw others into your perspective.

An example is . . .

“Everything is what it is, and not another thing. Only through reasoned examination of facts can one discern a thing's identity. Once the identity is known, arguments to the contrary only serve to promote that which is false.” (Prometheus)

Not debating if this statement is true or not but . . . this type of statement leads to attacks because by the nature of the statement you just discounted any contrary thought. That may or may not be your intent but you need to realize that the result of this kind of statement will be attacks by people (some very intelligent people) with contrary perspectives. Intelligent people will not sit back and let another person basically trash their own set of beliefs or life "facts".

Just my thoughts . . .

kiki 2 years, 8 months ago

Prometheus,

The main idea from my last post was more focused on the idea of "fruitful conversatins" and how others have responded to your posts. I am not debating the truthfulness of the statement I quoted from you, just an example of why someone may respond to you in a mean spited manner.

In a statement, your approach to issues will lead to strong pushback. You probably already were aware that your comments would lead to terse comments. That was all I was trying to express. Afterall, Jesus told his followers that they should expect to be ridiculed and hated for their support of Him. Not saying you are Jesus :-) . . .

Help me understand . . . the Law of Identity . . . is that A = A and will always = A. What if a person was to find a singular exception to A? Does that mean that the identity of A changes or is modified? Does A become A' or B? What if we have A and scientific research disproves A in only a specific situation? Does A go away?

From your perspective . . . how does the Principle of Contradiction play into this discussion?

I am trying to understand your perspective . . . Many times I have heard experts expouse facts (A) and along comes some researcher and provides an exception to the "fact" (A').

My education and experience shows that there are very few "A"s (most based on natural law) but many feel they have the true "A". My brain is in constant pursuit of more "A"s and weeding through the mularcky.

In my opinion there are very few truths. Some of my "truths" are based on faith (religious). Some are based on scientific data (natural law). I see very few "A"s, as in the Law of Identity. I have my set of premises I live my life by based on scientific data and faith. I do not know how this may relate to the Law of Identity which seem more like a philosophical ideal rather than a real life axiom.

Your thoughts?

teufelhunden 2 years, 8 months ago

Prometheus- "Muslims and non-Muslims alike, need to face up to this incontrovertible fact: Islam's ultimate goal is world domination by Islamic rule, and America stands as the single greatest barrier to the realization of that ultimate goal. That is the exact simple statement of the problem." - Take heed people. This is as straightforward as it gets.

SANDHILLSK9 2 years, 8 months ago

Here is a link to a German news paper who shows what the American Press don't like you to see!

just check the pictures and you will see what the Islam is thinking about Americans - not Christians - All Americans

http://www.bild.de/BILD/politik/2010/09/10/koran-proteste-erster-tote-bei-ausschreitungen/wegen-hass-prediger-terry-jones.html

kiki 2 years, 8 months ago

Wasn't John Galt a fictional character? I think he represented the ideal capitalist? I realize that the author of this novel used academic principles in presenting a conceptualization of philosophical premises but this only further explains the premises not "prove" them. I do see why you found this novel interesting. It seems to coincide with your beliefs.

The reference to socialistic idealism in the novel is also interesting. I guess that is what I would be labeled from the author's perspective. I find it interesting that the author describes a world based on social idealism in a poor light.

Our brains work very differently!

I see your world as oppressive "what is, is and ever shall be", conceptually black or white, fearful, scientific, and predetermined. Probably different from your view of your world . . . LOL.

I see my world as full of opportuities, all people are good until proven otherwise, only limits are natural laws (gravity, etc) and peoples beliefs (bigger issue than natural law), there are very few absolutes, some black or white but full of a spectrum of grey, etc. Projecting here but . . . you probably see my world as lacking defination, mis-guided, idealistic, no substance, etc.

My point in this whole conversation is that I feel the world needs both types of thinking and others. I continue to try and understand your way of thinking and I do see the times where I can use more discipline in my thinking.

My fear is that we, as a society, continue to become more divided . . . "my way or the highway" or "if you don't agree with me you are wrong". I feel this is due in a great part with how we receive our information - cable news. Most of us tend to tune in to the station that support our thinking. That station pumps us full of information that makes us feel right or correct. We only get our side of the "news". This comes back to one of your earlier points about how we acquire information that we use to operate our lives.

There are many people on this site that seem to fall into that catagory. Whether the conversation is religious (Christian nation, Islam, etc) or political (Rep vs Dem, liberal vs consertative, jail vs no jail, etc.) each of us seem to have the answers and is not willing to listen to another viewpoint. As I stated in my original post on this thread, my hope is that we move towards Blanchard's phrase "understand, then be understood". To paraphrase from a country song, " we have two ears and just one tounge, because we have more to hear that we have to say'.

Cheers!