Needless Agitation on Gay Marriage
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North Carolina already has a law against gay marriage. But some in the new Republican legislative leadership want a constitutional amendment accomplishing the same thing.
One has to wonder why. This appears to be mostly a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist.
Sponsors of the proposed change to the N.C. Constitution apparently feel that the statute on the books is not enough, since some misguided judge could strike it down by declaring it unconstitutional. But that’s highly unlikely to happen. And even if it did, the state Supreme Court — which achieved a Republican majority in the same election that the General Assembly did, though the judicial election is technically nonpartisan — would be all but certain to overrule the judge.
Those pushing for this change, it seems clear, hope to do more than just accomplish their surface goal. Rather, they appear to be out to make a statement, throw their newfound weight around, and curry favor with the socially conservative voters who helped put them where they are.
Bitter Debate Ensured
There may be yet another motivation here on the part of the Republicans: to put their Democratic counterparts on the spot by forcing them either to vote yes on an amendment that they may have doubts about or open themselves to charges of being soft on homosexuality in the next election.
Political maneuvering aside, this effort has the potential to create mischief for the state and its residents in at least a couple of ways. If nothing else, it will needlessly embroil the General Assembly in a bitter and disruptive debate, taking up valuable time that could better be spent on serious matters, especially the seemingly insurmountable budgetary crisis.
And don’t forget that legislative approval of the amendment is only the first step. It would still have to go to a vote of the people, embroiling the population at large in another lengthy and divisive argument. Preachers would be turned against preachers. While most churches in the state would tend to favor the marriage ban, some other more liberal-minded ones would be sure to oppose it.
Unintended Economic Effect?
The other concern is the significant unintended economic effect the passage of such an amendment could produce.
Like it or not, not everyone in all regions of the United States feels the same about this issue as folks in North Carolina tend to. Passage of the anti-gay-marriage amendment would certainly produce a lot of media fallout. Some organizations and individuals elsewhere that either favor gay marriage or deplore the idea of Big Brother government thrusting its hands into what should be a private matter might choose other locales for their conventions and other events, damaging North Carolina’s lucrative tourism business.
The kind of cutting-edge high-tech companies that North Carolina is trying to attract might also shun a state they saw as trying to make some of its employees feel unwelcome.
And all for the sake of a grandstanding attempt by some in Raleigh to gain political points for accomplishing something that’s already accomplished — and effectively tying the hands of future generations who may someday take a decidedly different view on this whole subject.
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Comments
JohnBartlett 2 years, 6 months ago
Having lived through, and still embarrassed by, the Draconian laws of the pre-civil rights era, I can only say how appalling it is that North Carolina chooses to continue to support the ignorant and backwoods attitude of those days by targeting gays instead of blacks. The author of this article questions the motivation behind a constructional amendment but fails to question the motivation behind the law. The answer to both is ignorance, bigotry and hate just as it was behind the anti-miscegenation laws finally overturned in 1967 by the US Supreme Court. As a southerner, I have always been proud of my heritage but deeply ashamed of the people who pretend to be Christians and make such laws as these. The south is constantly the brunt of untold jokes about toothless hillbillies, Klan rallies and back woods preacher's marrying their sisters and I for one am sick of it. Government interference in people's ability to marry just continues to make us look like the stereotypes made popular in shows like the "Beverly Hillbillies" and now our "Republican" lawmakers want to make sure we stay mired in that vision for all the world to see. According to this article, "though the judicial election is technically nonpartisan — would be all but certain to overrule the judge" implies that even the judicial system in North Carolina is prejudiced, bigoted and uninterested in the welfare of all the people. When will we ever get out of the post civil war degradation that law makers in North Carolina have forced us to live under for the last 150 years?
Sally244 2 years, 6 months ago
Great comment John. Why not put all that pent-up energy into something positive and useful to all. This is an old and worn out topic. Move on, it's not going to do anything except distract everyone away from more important topics and make a few insecure people feel like they're important.
dustyrhoades 2 years, 6 months ago
Shorter Sally244: "Because SHUT UP, that's why!"
eflat7 2 years, 6 months ago
If it's good enough for CA, it's good enough for NC.
hotdiggity 2 years, 6 months ago
One is not pretending to be a Christian when they are against homosexual marriage.
eflat7 2 years, 6 months ago
Because even CA shot down Prop 8.
nothingspecial 2 years, 6 months ago
JohnBartlett, ignorance is comparing the gay rights fight to the civil rights fights of the 60's or accusing people who oppose gay rights of bigotry.
JohnBartlett 2 years, 6 months ago
nothingspecial, I guess you also think Mrs. Martin Luther King, Jr. was "ignorant" since she was one of the first to compare the fight for gay rights to the fight for black rights. People who oppose gay rights are ignorant bigots and everyone knows that. You may want those of us from the south to look like fools, but many of us don't.
Emerald 2 years, 6 months ago
Thank God for the south!
JER 2 years, 6 months ago
I find in curious that those who speak the loudest about reducing government interference in our daily lives are the ones most in favor of telling us who we can or cannot marry.
BigE 2 years, 6 months ago
What is the downside to two adult human beings getting married? I can not understand any position against it, never mind messing around with constitutions. Should we also be concerned with our heterosexual neighbors who partake in sexual acts beyond the missionary position?
When I was young and naive I use to think religion taught people to love each other and get along, my observations as a free thinking adult have revealed just the opposite. Personally, I do not believe in a supernatural creature who sits around all day listening to whiny human beings "pray" for their favorite sports teams to win a game, but if I did, my god would be appalled by all the hatred generated by the flock.
sgmartin 2 years, 6 months ago
Yeah let's invest energy passing a law that is unnecessary. Because it is not like we don't have more important things to do - like create jobs and figure out the state budget mess without decimating education and health care. This isn't about gay marriage - its about wasting time and resources. Time to get some real work done .
nothingspecial 2 years, 6 months ago
JohnBartlett, are you serious that everyone knows that everyone who opposes gay rights is a bigot? I'll let you in on the real little known fact about most people on this Earth. They for the most part feel that anyone who wears their sexuality on their sleeve, whether heterosexual or homosexual has a screw loose. I'm still wondering about James' question - why someone can't marry their sister or their mother and have kids like any other married couple? The key point is where you draw the line. I draw a line based on my moral compass. You call that bigotry. By your definition, we're both bigots.
Emerald 2 years, 6 months ago
Just because you believe differently doesn't mean there is any hate involved, so stop bashing "Christians" as a whole. I can love you and still disagree with gay marriage. I agree with James. BigE says, "What is the downside of two adult human beings getting married?" Why not marry two or three people all together if it doesn't really matter, if they love each other. Thank you nothingspecial--, please don't wear your sexuality on your sleeve.
BigE 2 years, 6 months ago
@James-Your examples are apples and oranges. We are talking about marriage between two human beings who want to make a life together. If you want your definition to be 1 man/1 woman then obviously you aren't about to marry a man, but why force your views on someone else. Isn't that what the Taliban does? Extrapolating this argument to inanimate objects doesn't help your argument.
The fact that "most believe..." well, most believe in a mythical supernatural creature created by ancient superstitious humans to explain things they didn't understand, to give an excuse to their failures, and to sell the dream of a better place to keep the masses from rebelling against their lousy lot in life. What's the saying? Oh ya, "Wide acceptance of an idea is not proof of its validity."
Also, you might find that not everyone who disagrees with you falls under the label of "liberal." I know the tent on the far right is really, really small and you have to have a very narrow set of beliefs to be let in, but you might find that club is only going to get smaller and more isolated.
hotdiggity 2 years, 6 months ago
Allowing homosexuals to marry is a problem that needs to be addressed. Pull this issue out into the light, AND ALLOW THE VOTERS DECIDE!!! The Democrats have hid their views long enough, its time they show the good people of North Carolina what they really stand for.
stARDAwg 2 years, 6 months ago
in the devolved dynamics of society and the modern scheme of greed and deceit, im having a hard time figuring out why anyone, homo, hetero, or both, would want to "marry" at all. oh right, i just realized most peoples tired mentality of controlling others' lives... tax breaks, insurance, employment favor, social acceptance, co-dependence, personal insecurity, blah blah..
you guys can keep the idea of 'legal" marriage. i for one do not want a corrupt government, legal system, or a corporate religion involved in my personal life and relationship with God. if i ever choose to make a familial commitment with another person/people for an indefinite period, that will be OUR business....
no threats of "divorce" necessary and the mere concept laughable.... we wont need a lawyer, courts, or some judge telling us who gets what materials or payments, if/when any involved individuals decide to take different paths in life.
we will be mature and honest with one another, allowing each to grow individually according to personal interests.... however we each may choose to progress in accordance with development of complete character.
while in this body, at this crossfire juncture of human existence, if i am unable to locate anyone who agrees with this simply interesting concept of procreation and forever sailing relationships, i can always choose to save my personal soul~ar system contribution to the human daisy chain until my next missing link. that is the beauty of what faith and confidence affords me.
~PeACE~
nothingspecial 2 years, 6 months ago
Big E and Stardawg, you're right its about apples and oranges. Between those who follow basic traditions and values that have created the fabric that creates a majority of fairly balanced, hard working, basically moral citizens for the past thousands of years, and between those who believe anything should go as long as no one hurts anyone. Anything can go behind folk's closed doors as it has for thousands of years again. It's when you start demanding that we accept that an apple is an orange, so some people can fell better that what they are doing is right, where there is going to be a problem. If you believe that is just purely mean, then you're not seeing the big picture. That's why every state that has a vote on the topic of gay marriage will vote against it, while not opposing that gays have rights similar to marriage. Change for the good has happened over the years - ending slavery, ending racism, working to end child abuse, working to end bullying, but there's a line between apples and oranges.
Ross 2 years, 6 months ago
Emerald says..."Thank God for the south! " - yeah - kinda like standing next to that ugly guy in a picture - makes you look much better!
JER 2 years, 6 months ago
James, your reply to my post assumes that I would react in horror at any of the other marriage combinations you proposed. I could give a damn if some guy wants to marry his car or if a woman wants to have 12 husbands. That is for them to decide. As long as it has no effect on me, why should I have a voice in their decision? I didn't call you a bigot for your beliefs. You are free to believe whatever you want. You are not free to force your beliefs on others. It is people like you that cause the strife in this world. Live and let live James. The world will be a better place.
nothingspecial 2 years, 6 months ago
Live and let live - the mantra of the largest generation, composed partly of self-absorbed, immature adult idiots in the history of this nation. God help the next generation and this nation that they survive the coming and going of our whole generation, but especially of the live and let live crowd.
A typical married or divorced mother of children is probably the closest thing (with the exception of a little child) to the most superior human being found on this Earth. She is patient, loyal, loving, perhaps put aside her education for her spouse but has more wisdom and intelligence than the most applauded Ph.D or M.D. Sarah Palin is popular because she has given voice to these citizens who should be making alot more decisions at the highest level these days.
And this citizen is frequently seen rolling her eyes at the idiocy that we male husbands and others spout off at the mouth about. Because she knows what's important in life - bringing our children and their peers up as best we can, in a wholesome, safe, and realistic environment, and living a decent life. She accepts "live and let live" as much as anyone, but she doesn't want to see it on television. I'll bet she also wishes alot more than in previous generations that men in general would grow up and get on with more important things in life than wanting to take testosterone or viagra when they start feeling too much like adults and wanting to make it one of the greatest objectives of this administration that the minority, militant brand of the homosexual lifestyle permeate every nook and cranny of our society.
BigE 2 years, 6 months ago
@James- Again with the "liberals" comment. Come on there are Republicans who are atheists!
A) I am still not sure how allowing gay people to marry "destroys" a "major institution." Explain it to me. Would interracial marriage be destroying our culture? How about the marriage between a Jew and a Christian? Oy vey! B) It is not as though heterosexual marriage is a huge success. Lots of cheating going on, lots of divorces, lots of disfunction. C) I have no children by choice. Should we ban a man and woman from marrying if they don't agree to create a traditional family unit? Whatever that is! D) You do not have to take a test to get married or to become parents. Seems to me we should ban ___ (fill in the blank- low IQ, evil, selfish, ugly, etc.) people from getting married. They are screwing up society and passing on their genes.
stARDAwg 2 years, 5 months ago
why give preferential economic and social treatment to legally wed couples in the first place?
what does the state have to do with legitimizing intimate personal relationships?
reformgov1 2 years, 5 months ago
BigE, not only are you unsecure with your sexualty, you won't even admit or accept that you're a liberal. We thank you for not passing on your genes!! And if you haven't noticed, turns out that the majority agrees and the club is getting bigger......now let's have a glass of TEA.
AM910 2 years, 5 months ago
Thanks to reformgov1 and James for showing the true ignorance in society today - especially certain Republicans and Tea Baggers in this country (and county). As you move backwards, the rest of us will move forward to try and get unemployment down, the country back on it's feet, and make this country better. No one really wants to know what goes on in your bedroom anyway.
Emerald 2 years, 5 months ago
Backwards sounds good to me if we keep heading in the direction we are going now. Whatever your sexuality is, keep it at home. I don't want to explain to my children why there are men holding hands, and wether you like it or not, most us hillbillies down south agree. Homo, hetero, bi, whatever, leave it at home.
JER 2 years, 5 months ago
And we wonder why this country is screwed up: People who want peace and tranquility - BAD! People who spew hate and venom - Good! People who want to live and let live - Very Bad!! People who want to tell you how to live your life. - Very Good!! People who are unemployed, people without insurance, people who are gay - Very Very Bad!! People who think for themselves - Idiots!!! People who have to be told what to think by their church or their political leaders or by the media - Geniuses!!! People who cannot separate church and state - the problem!!!
Yukonjohn 2 years, 5 months ago
Wow, James, you give Republicans a bad name!! I am not a Republican, but do belong to a very conservative political party, the AIP (Alaska Independence Party) and while I do not care one way or the other, gay people are Americans. They are ALSO endowed with certain inalienable rights. I trust you remember what they are. I agree so much with things the Tea Baggers have for a platform, but as has been already said, the people that say they want LESS govt. and govt. to get out of our lives, they are the exact same ones that want to tell us how to live and want to be in our living rooms and bedrooms. As long as it is not affecting you why should you concern yourself with someone's sexuality?
BigE 2 years, 5 months ago
@James- Thanks for making me smile!
A) You express your opinions and mistake them for absolutes. Too bad. You may believe that marriage "is between one man and one woman" but it is not the universal opinion or law throughout this country. At one time it was believed that marriage was between one man and one woman of like race. (Look up miscegenation laws.) History shows us that it just takes some people longer to come in from the dark.
B) "ALL" is too absolute a boundary condition that I think is incorrectly used here. I'd vote for two parents over one, but do not believe ALL reports reveal an advantage to the heterosexual couples, e.g.,
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/oct/30/nation/na-surrogacyside1x
Slamming marriage? The facts speak for themselves. Find your favorite source of data but they are all in the neighborhood of these- -50% percent of first marriages, -67% of second and -74% of third marriages end in divorce, according to Jennifer Baker of the Forest Institute of Professional Psychology in Springfield, Missouri.
BTW, bad analogy. If people drove like they performed at marriage, driving might be outlawed!
C) Thanks for your blessing!
D) Hee-hee. Couldn't make it through without typing "liberals", huh?
BigE 2 years, 5 months ago
@reformgov1- Thank you for your use of "unsecure" and the misspelling of sexuality. It gives me a chance to enjoy the right's celebration of ignorance and for you to call me an elitist and a Liberal (again).
Sally244 2 years, 5 months ago
What I find disturbing here is how quickly a conversation becomes a personal attack. reformgov1, nothingspecial and James have now resorted to "bullying" spewing demeaning comments against BigE and anyone else who has a rational thought. What makes you think you own the rights to marriage? You make it out to be some kind of Holey Grail. Marriage is also a practical institution in today's society allowing a couple to benefit financially, legally and socially. Marriage is also a government institution today with all kinds of laws dictating a couples financial life. I think Emerald spoke perfectly for you saying she just doesn't want to explain why two men are holding hands. It's all about you not wanting to deal with it and hide behind your "religious" views finding ammunition to fortify your bigotry. Why do you even care how people choose to live their lives?
cornbread 2 years, 5 months ago
In addition to the discussion above, there's a real fiscal cost to holding a special referendum on this matter: $5,726,500.
Link to the fiscal note from NC General Assembly staff on the 2009 version of this bill: http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2009/FiscalNotes/Senate/PDF/SFN0272v1.pdf
It is simply absurd that anyone who is concerned about budget deficits or tax rates would seriously consider spending nearly $6 million in taxpayer money on an issue that is already addressed in state law.
If you're going to throw almost $6 million at a marriage issue, why not hire some marriage counselors or do something else that would actually help troubled marriages?
Interesting data point from outside NC: In the roughly 5 years since gays were allowed to marry in Massachusetts, the divorce rate there has dropped to its lowest level since the 1940s.
Data link here: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/mardiv.htm
pinehurstmom 2 years, 5 months ago
Unfortunately, I don't see North Carolina ever allowng gay marriage. There are too many closed minded people who think there is something perverted about being gay. This is one of the reasons I left the church. The BS Christians spout about us all being God's children except those who are gay and are shunned by the church didn't fly with me!
hotdiggity 2 years, 5 months ago
If one notices all the anti-Christian post above, it is easy to see the real objective of homosexual marriage, to shut up the Christians with hate speech laws. This is not about equality, it is all about power, truly satanic in nature.
pinehurstmom 2 years, 5 months ago
James-thanks-I am glad to hear there are some reasonable churches out there. This was a Catholic Church in another state.
moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago
Bestiality, Pedophelia, Polygamy/Bigamy, Incest, and Objectophilia, are severe mental health issues with criminal consequenses. True Love between two consenting Adult's is not.
threeputt 2 years, 5 months ago
I am employer, volunteer, property owner and I pay taxes - to say I contribute to my community and society at large is an understatement. The arguments over "gay marriage" are all the same....pro or con. Jonathan Rauch sums it up very nicely, "The real point of the gay rights movement is not just to secure equality for homosexuals; it is to maximize all Americans’ freedom to be true to themselves." This freedom I have been denied.
Emerald 2 years, 5 months ago
@Sally244, I didn't want to have to deal with it, but I already have. When the local news aired a story on a man giving birth, I had to explain to my child that a man cannot give birth, that she was born a woman. We do not hide behind our religion. We live by the Holy Bible and believe in it. No hiding here.
nothingspecial 2 years, 5 months ago
You folks tearing into we who voice opposition to gay marriage have a habit of exaggerating what we say, I guess because it makes it easier for you to feel justified hating us or hating Christians, and of also not really bothering to read what we say. I’m thinking you’re the ones who seem to love to jump into the hate mode, not us.
cornbread 2 years, 5 months ago
@James: No one is stopping you from believing whatever you want to believe.
It is your actions -- your attempts to restrict your fellow citizens from living in a committed monogamous relationship -- that are the problem.
If you really don't care what goes on in someone's bedroom, then stand by your words and keep the government out of restricting marriage to straights only.
Sally244 2 years, 5 months ago
I really don't understand the one man and one woman issue since marriage is about loving another human being as well as a government institution in today's society. It's all about taxes and benefits. That's part of what gay people are arguing about since there's no provision to allow these benefits without getting married. It's discriminatory to prohibit any man or woman from being treated equally. Changing the law doesn't mean YOU have to change your beliefs, no one is saying that. I don't understand why the Christian religious community feels they have to control what other people do.
moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago
I don't hate christians but I can't stand people who call themselves "CHRISTIANS" and who either have no concept of what it truly means to be a christian or have personal principals that are in direct conflict of the teachings of Jesus. There are soooooooooo many of you it's absolutely appalling! No wonder things are very bad and getting worse. Too many hypocrits out there to make things good again.
jamjam 2 years, 5 months ago
James, why so angry? what are you afraid of? has someone hurt you in the past? did your church have a bigotry sunday school?
stARDAwg 2 years, 5 months ago
i have a question for the christians in this thread regarding the wedding of community more-so than the original topic of one on one and sexual preferences.
with the debate pending regarding separation of church and state, and with the goal in mind of thoughtful progression and unity...
keep in mind, i am a child of God, just like everyone else. the primary difference between you and i is... ive chosen to live my life to the living word in order to search for universal truth.... and in doing so i get to prove the hypocrisy of those of you who bear false witness and use God's name for purposes of vanity and self righteousness.
so with that in mind please answer my question without prejudice. how do you explain the separation of church and church? why are there so many different christian franchises and independent christian businesses all over the world as well as in moore county?
marathonman 2 years, 5 months ago
The bible says: homosexuality is an abomination. Those who feel differently than God had intended, Adam/Eve, have an abnormality. Should they come together and choose to be together in their abnormality, should be of no concern to anyone except when they demand 'special' status. Now they become a political force and that is the crux of the matter.
stARDAwg 2 years, 5 months ago
if different world religions were likened to variable sexual preferences and spiritual bonds of commitment among humans (we all know anything goes in the animal kingdom).... and compared in the context of bringing forth new life and PeACE to the existing....
would this not make christianity out to be a proud homoreligio?
None 2 years, 5 months ago
“21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. Genesis 2 (New King James Version)”
Nowhere in scripture did God create "Adam and Steve" to live as one and be bountiful and reproduce. Not on His watch.
BTW: our church is open to anyone of faith regardless of whatever...as our priest so eloquently pointed out; the welcome sign on Massachusetts doesn't have an asterisk, everyone is welcome.
Not sure I would want just anyone watching the children or youth group...just my opinion not speaking for anyone at the church!
That doesn’t change the fact that humans perform un-natural sex acts not supported by any moral standard by God or man. If two men or women are on the “down-low”, don’t advertise their maladjusted behavior. Animals don’t even act that way…so what makes them right?
moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago
Marathonman, so called "Christians" like you keep refering to the OLD HEBREW SCRIPTURES to quantify said beliefs. Those stories were "updated" and given totally new explanations and meanings by Jesus of Nazareth to live by. Jesus was merciful and forgiving. He taught people how to live in a more accepting world that empowers all of us. Not some of us. The Old Testament, in this case, Leviticus 18:12, is NULL and VOID!
cornbread 2 years, 5 months ago
I can quote the Old Testament too!
Psalm 133 1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! 2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; 3 as the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.
BigE 2 years, 5 months ago
We are talking about the legal union of two consenting adults in marriage by the laws of individual states. Religions can do whatever they please. If a certain church or temple or shrine choose not to honor a marriage that is fine and within their rights. However, I do not want my government making rulings based on an individual religious doctrine!
stARDAwg 2 years, 5 months ago
so no one wants to explain why christian churches are subdivided into tax free havens?
is it because most religious corporations have seen ways of manipulating people into giving them money to teach them the same stories over and over and over ad infinitum?
last i checked, the truth of God was free and easy, and most everyone knows how to read, communicate, or experience their own individual relationship with truth... and most can decide for themselves what stories of others, past or present, resonate with their being.
why have all of you made it so complicated? its no wonder church attendance is dwindling as heaven on eARTh begins to dawn. you guys might want to reassess your business model.
marathonman 2 years, 5 months ago
Thanks MC7 - the second part of my piece is the significant one once you get past what we believe individually - 'Special Status' is the crux of the problem and particularly when they want to make new rules. This goes for any minority group who wish 'special status'. Oh, and the old testament states the rules. The new testament is about Jesus and his love of all mankind. He never changed the rules. He came to take away our sins, but the rules are the rules.
BigE 2 years, 5 months ago
I'm hetero and don't see anyone asking for special status, just equal status. Guess that's the point MM, you don't see these people as equals.
stARDAwg 2 years, 5 months ago
why does our government and financial institutions openly discriminate against singles and how is that legal?
Sally244 2 years, 5 months ago
Toda says: Animals don’t even act that way…so what makes them right?
You might want to do a little research on this. It is scientifically documented that 1500 species of animals practice homosexual behavior.
stARDAwg, I like your point, each group broke away from the parent group so they could go by their own rules. Religion is the greatest herder of people who are not willing to think for themselves.
Behan 2 years, 5 months ago
"You might want to do a little research on this. It is scientifically documented that 1500 species of animals practice homosexual behavior."
I wonder how many of my tax dollars were used to fund that gem of a study...
fugitiveguy 2 years, 5 months ago
"It is scientifically documented that 1500 species of animals practice homosexual behavior."
Ahhh, now we get to the real reason for endangered species.
Arestorer 2 years, 5 months ago
Just let them get married already,,,then they can suffer like the rest of us.
spark58510 2 years, 5 months ago
Denominations have come about because some Christians like to live by the word of God ... except for this part right here that talks about drinking. I think we should be able to drink but not get drunk....oh and this one says, I believe in all of it but I don't care much for this part. I'll put my own little spin on it ... blah blah blah. Religion is a revenue-generator. Many religios are hypocrites. They curse, drink, smoke, and do whatever they want. It's a social thing and it helps them sleep at night ... but the points made so far are good (and no one has really argued them well)
a) the people who are complaining about government and its control want the government to control the definition of marriage. where is marriage defined? in the bible? bad argument. i respect your christianity. you respect my "separation of church and state". this is not a christian country. it is a country with christians in it. ever seen a country run totally based on religion? check out the middle eastern countries. that's where this country will end up.
b) unless it's harmful (and i mean physically) to others, what right does the government have to define social morals? gay marriage hurts NO ONE .. if you have a problem with your kids seeing it, it's your right to raise them however you want ... it is NOT your right to make a law defining marriage. with regards to marriage (or domestic relationships), the only take that the govt should have is what rights the "partner" should have, rights to life insurance, rights to medical choices, etc, etc.
dp6 2 years, 5 months ago
This is from the NEW Testament:
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
Now, having shared that, I will tell you that some of my very best friends are homosexual, however I feel it is the wrong way to live. I love them, and I pray for them. I am a Christian, and proud to be one. They know how I feel and they respect my feelings, I respect their choices as well. I do not support gay marriage, and I believe this country was founded on Christian principles. I know many of you disagree, and that is your choice. I just don't understand all the hostility on here. True Christians are about love. We are required to love one another just as Jesus loves us.
pinehurstmom 2 years, 5 months ago
so, Toda because you believe everything in the Bible, that means that:
a. that interepretation is correct b. we all have to follow it
I don't think so!
Sally244 2 years, 5 months ago
Yes, true Christians are about love. But so many want to tell others how to live. Personally I don't believe in "Magical Thinking". We humans are very interesting in that we have a superstitious part of our brains and we have a logical part. I've read articles that suggest religion evolved when humans developed emotions. The awe of an unknown world can be overwhelming to the primitive mind and answers were needed. So therefore the evolution of one, or more than one supreme being developed to satisfy the questions of the unknown.
Man comes along and sees the opportunity to control the masses through the dictatorship of Religion and we have the Church. The Dumo in Florence has pictures of the Bible stories on the dome so when the illiterate masses were praying and looking up they could see the stories on the ceilings and the priests could tell people that these things would happen to them if they didn't follow their beliefs.
The Bible was written 100 years after Christ by MAN. You don't think the men who wrote it were trying to control the masses with all kinds of rules and regulations? It's the biggest scam in the history of man.
The Romans were obsessed with the food revolution and having excessive parties spending huge amounts of money to impress their friends. Yes, there were orgies and over indulgence, people would force themselves to vomit so they could eat more.
Now enter the Christians with their own Magical thinking. Yes they brought down the Roman empire to control the masses to control their behavior to their own beliefs based on jelousy and were successful at it. Female Deities were destroyed, Pagan rituals were converted into Christian rituals so the masses would follow.
All of this is manipulation of people to collect their money. The Catholic institution is the richest church in the world. And you don't think this is about money and control of the people who are willing to pay?
There are definitely absolute "Truths" in all religions that resonate in all of us. We humans were born with the sense of right and wrong, we all understand that without being told by some institution. If it makes you feel better to be told what to think, fine; Go to your church. There are many of us who prefer to think for ourselves and come to what I think is a more "Christian" view of the world and how to accept others without prejudice.
AM910 2 years, 5 months ago
Please quit saying that homosexuality is a choice. No one chooses it as a lifestyle. No one wakes up going, "You know what, I'm gonna be gay today." When did straight people decide that was their path in life?
And, knowing that the good book has been quoted and will be after this, we all sin. God and I are on good terms, so if you want to throw stones, think about it before you do.
moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago
While GOD gave the Ten Commandments(The Rules)to the People of Israel thru the Prophet MOSES; it was JESUS who interpreted, explained, and fulfilled them. While those "Interpretations" are at times confusing, those rules are best adhered to thru the "Realm of the Golden Rule". These are RULES for a Civilized and Caring Society to live by; they are supposed to teach the Hateful, and Chaotic Societies how to change for the better. Why are there so many different "churches"? Again, it's simple...........because there are so many selfish, egotistical, arrogant, hateful and greedy people who find themselves "at odds" with whatever a certain preacher at a certain church is spewing and decide that they have a "Better way, a Better idea, a Better plan." And so they leave to CREATE their own Church with their own more understanding Congregation(David Koresh anyone?). These STOREFRONT Churches everywhere are a joke. They have congregations consisting of a few friends/relatives who like to spend time together and then get to have a tax deduction for said time. So sick too are many of the very large organized ones who teach division, superiority complexes, hate, and especially SEXISM!!!!!!!
stARDAwg 2 years, 5 months ago
dp6, those scriptures were written in another period of human history during drastically different social circumstances...
long before now, when the restriction to straight "missionary" sex, leading to overpopulation and gluttony (resulting from sexual repression) have become the major issues regarding global resource sustainability and sexual and mental dysfunction among humans.
so in essence, it is the christian mentality of aborting evolutionary cultural process, holding fast to past principles, and discouraging sexual exploration... while promoting population expansion and religious world domination which has led to the onset of the next evolution of human sexuality and mentality.
its my theory that homosexuality and bisexuality will become as accepted as hetero, if not the status quo. does this mean that satan will win the holy war with God? or does it mean that God is driving this train, and God always knows best for the progression of eARTh?
i think its time that christians begin to salt and pepper the crow, since that is what will be served when the truth of the present comes to light. im not saying christians have been wrong, im simply saying "nice job", now its time for you to step down and let the next generation take the wheel.
i guess "satan" financed this film:
http://www.imdb.com/video/wab/vi2370241305/
Ross 2 years, 5 months ago
whew - me thinks these right wing loonies are not too comfortable with their manhood making all this fuss........too funny!
stARDAwg 2 years, 5 months ago
james.. no guessing here... the fact is... living a healthy honest mind body spirit self sustaining lifestyle does not require financial medical insurance. believe it or not people have existed quite happily in the past without multibillion dollar health institutions and pharmaceutical corporations telling everyone what they "need".... or the brother~in~law insurance companies stealing billions more dollars from everyone, with little interest in paying out to legitimate claims without raising rates....while the father~in~law politicians allow it all to be so.
perceived dependency on health care has only come about in the last 50 years or so as a result of the market manipulation and false advertising in the health care system while undermining personal strength and self healing practices. preventative maintenance trumps crisis management in the responsible persons life.
its ironic that you trust in the god of the dollar more than in the God of creation even though you claim absolute faith. please do not pray for me, God is tired of hearing pleas from those who do little to improve themselves and discourage others who do with threats of money. health is wealth havent you heard? and printed green paper is only paper with coerced influence.
money divides absolutely. love conquers all.
and to keep this comment on topic. magnetic attraction aside, true love knows no law on the books and there will never be a written law to either allow it or restrict it.
stARDAwg 2 years, 5 months ago
JOURNEY w/ Steve Augeri - OPEN ARMS (Las Vegas 2001) by Rodel Basco
BigE 2 years, 5 months ago
Once again, atheism does not equal liberalism.
moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago
Stardawg, you made me cry this morning after watching that "OPEN ARMS" video from JOURNEY. When that song hit the radio waves in 1982 I was going thru a very rough time in my life. A marriage ending and a new relationship beginning. Emotions were running at full speed then in my life and in the world. That's why it's so difficult for me to listen to it; too many memories and so I try to avoid listening to it. But it is such a beautiful song about LOVE and all of it's consequences. Its such a terrible shame that so many people writing here are so heartless and narrow-minded to NOT want to embrace the ideals and ceremonies of TRUE LOVE between consenting Adult's. HATE seems to be winning out, even amongst those who call themselves Christians. CHRISTIANS out there: YOU NEED TO GET OUT and EXPERIENCE MORE of LIFE!!!!
None 2 years, 5 months ago
pinehurstmom says...a. that [interpretation] is correct b. we all have to follow it
I don't think so!
I enjoy good discussion and debate. We all know the Bible was written by men decades and centuries after the events. Do I adhere to everything written in the Bible...of course not? If I did believe, I couldn't travel to church on Sundays or much of anything else. One has to realize that the Old Testament was written before Jesus came on the scene and was appropriate lifestyles under Hebrew Laws of that period. Much of what is written is common sense. I communicated with a young lady of the Wicca Faith on FB, and her believes made as much sense as my Christian beliefs. She felt a strong relationship with nature and the earth – nothing wrong with that, American Indians have practiced “Animism” as long as there have been native Americans. Great Spirit in my opinion is synonymous with Deity or God. And
Some gay people I don't like, not because of their sexual orientation, but because I don't like them - period. I have a member of my extended family who is gay; love him like the rest of the multitude - huge extended family. There are people of other cultures, races, and religious backgrounds I don't like - not for social reasons - I just don't like them....
Just like people who have never met me - dislike me with a passion because of my outspoken opinions. That's their problem and not mine.
None 2 years, 5 months ago
colesue21 says... It should be until the new wears off...then it's back to living single in a double bed....
JeneccaD 2 years, 5 months ago
@BigE-- I could be in your club.
stARDAwg 2 years, 5 months ago
hi moonchild.. thanks for being an honest rear view mirror and thank you for keeping things balanced here in this expose' of a select group of ill informed and grumpy fundamentalists unable to admit ignorance... as well as for paying homage to the eARTh's celestial child and the fine balance it brings to our organic and biological physical embodiment project...
colesue.. i believe that is happening naturally. children are smarter than ever and are easily recognizing that the old ways of legally bound influence and manipulation are not necessary or required to express and share love. thats one reason why the government is set on labeling them as abnormal and with disorders, attempting to drug the soul out of them... because todays leaders know that with the accessibility of knowledge, that their time is ending and the star children will naturally assume their positions for the future.
toda.. duh! paganism, christianity, and eastern philosophies are all born from the same God. this entire moving picture is ALL under God's realm of imagination, so go figure. ive never understood why misled christians feel the need to label everything or everyone as right or wrong to justify their lack of tolerance or imagination, and its that labeling which has led to every major conflict throughout history... how inconvenient it must be for you to live your present days concerned with the past.
in regard to your stance of "i dont like"... to not like someone or something without understanding and that internal discord you carry in your mind on a daily basis, sure must be a heavy burden to bare. if you feel you must allow preferences of others to affect your personal well being and restrict yourself of the absolute PeACE that comes with love for all, that is totally on you...
as long as you people have issues with each other, you have issues with your collective creator. which makes you as textbook a definition of hypocrites as is possible. thanks for clearly defining what that word means and for teaching our future offspring why your school of thought never worked. the best way to teach children is to show examples, so good job.. but enough is enough. at this point its either get on board the PeACE train or get squashed like a penny.
BigE 2 years, 5 months ago
JeneccaD- LOL. Thanks. ;)
teufelhunden 2 years, 5 months ago
Whoa dude...like, pass the pipe, man
None 2 years, 5 months ago
stARDAwg => WHAT~ Peace out....
None 2 years, 5 months ago
stARDAwg => "eastern philosophies" Duh...American Indians - where did you read into my thread anything about eastern religions or their philosophies on life or deity? We’re not discussing Hinduism or the Bhagavad-Gita. Just Animism and Christianity! Or the lack thereof.
stARDAwg 2 years, 5 months ago
nevermind.
pinehurstmom 2 years, 5 months ago
Never said I hated you Toda, just a friendly disagreement. It's all good.
booscomputer 2 years, 4 months ago
I think it's Leviticus 18 that talks about homosexuality being an abomination. If we are going to take the Bible literally, watch out and consider this:
Here is Leviticus also:
20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
This one says you kill your kids if they "curseth" you.
20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Holy cow -- lots of dead people out there on this one.
You cannot pick and choose which parts of the Bible you are going to consider literal -- it either all is or it's all subjective. I don't care which you choose but the hypocrisy is really annoying. I can't think of a parent of a teenager who hasn't been "curseth" by them -- I guess you have to kill them if the Bible is literal.
I really prefer to deal with the New Testament and what I think Jesus actually stood for -- loving God, your neighbor (no matter who they are) and treating everyone the way you would like to be treated. Aren't these the primary principles Jesus taught? Didn't he also talk about God being the judge?
Instead of spending so much time hating each other for having different ideas or views -- how about we treat each other with dignity and respect simply because we are human beings and so are our neighbors?
My marriage is not affected by any one else's marriage. That argument is nonsense (I don't think I read it here -- but have seen it on the "news"). If the condition of my marriage is dependent upon other people's marriages or divorces ... crap, I'm out of luck since the divorce rate is+50%.
I'm not much for PDA -- but I have no problem talking to my kids about what being gay means -- that it is not a negative term and had better never be in my house.
So, stop being so mean to each other. Accept that we all have different ideas and that it is okay to be just who we are.
And no, I'm not a hippy -- too young. I'm not a liberal. I'm not a conservative. I AM AN AMERICAN -- that is what is most important to me and I'd like for our country to come together and compromise (I know this is a dirty word) so that we can all be treated the way we want to be treated or at least get close.