Bond Issue Not Justified

dustyrhoades 2 years, 10 months ago

Here we go again....

None 2 years, 10 months ago

Here we go again...with the detractors. Issues - the issues.

SoPinesNo1 2 years, 10 months ago

It would be nice if everyone was as above board as I am (pun intended).

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

The debt for Moore County is already 104 million dollars then add this 50 million dollars limited obligation bonds, the largest in Moore County history, and you are at 154 million. Add building and buying land for the future Government Complex then Court House Improvements and you are at 200 million at least.The interest rate for this 50 million dollar bond alone is close to 2.5 million dollars a year.It appears Caddell, Picerno, and Melton are spending Moore County into the largest debt in Moore County's history.

Yadkin County plans to spend 8.2 million for a 150 bed jail. How did the Moore County Detention Center with its first phase plan of 192 beds get so expensive and in an economy where we can hardly afford it. State budget cuts are at 30.1% for N.C. the sixth largest state for budget cuts. Is it fair to cut back on our childrens education and not raise county employees salaries but we can build a 40 million dollar Public Safety Complex. No one can predict what will happen with the economy in the next few years and it appears to me it is a time we should be more than cautious.

JoeGarrison 2 years, 10 months ago

To hear Toda, and plumblevel you just have to wonder if they need a hug or something, they sound angry, mad, and bitter.

GodSaves 2 years, 10 months ago

@ dustyrhoades "Here we go again...."

Poll published by The Pilot June 17- Does the bond issue for the new DC warrant a referendum?

68% YES 31% NO

Based on those numbers........I'm afraid it's going to keep going and going and going and going. I believe the Energizer bunny won't have crap on the opposers! LOL! As I have stated to Mr. McGraw in another post the Commissioners have the power to make it go away. At this point it seems as if they are just not willing. Be Blessed :)

clodfelter37 2 years, 10 months ago

You will find no more honorable men than Nick Picerno, Larry Caddell and Lee McGraw.

Arestorer 2 years, 10 months ago

@clodfelter REALLY??? Did you grow-up here in MoCo.& Do you think you really know these guys??

dustyrhoades 2 years, 10 months ago

Fact is, the anti-jail faction lost the election, so now they want bite after bite at the same apple by demanding a referendum every time they don't like something.

Sorry, representative democracy doesn't work that way, no matter how many polls you quote.

clodfelter37 2 years, 10 months ago

@Arestorer Not only born in Moore County, but watched each of these gentlemen grow into the fine adults they are now. We elected them to the office now let them do their jobs without all this moaning and groaning. They are honorable men.

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

Yadkin County plans to build a 150 bed jail for 8.2 million. Their lowest bid came in at 6.6 million by Edison Foard of Charlotte.The Moore County Public Safety Complex (including Sheriffs office and 911 Center) is planned for 192 beds, the first phase, at 40 million dollars.Yadkin County Commissioner Brady Wooten claimed they were able to go from 110 to 150, forty more beds, for only $500,000 more. Makes you wonder why Moore County is paying so much for their Public Safety Complex.

Yadkin County Commissioner Kevin Austin recused himself from voting on the jail since his family owned company the Austin Company is across the street from the proposed Hoots Road site (four miles outside of town). Kevin is president of the Republican Party for Yadkin County. He has abstained from voting on the jail plans but remains an opponent of the Hoots Road site. Austin said employees at his family's company, which make control cabinets and electrical supplies, are worried about visitors to the jail. "Do they steal someone's catalytic converter and then buy a crack rock?" Austin asked "I don't know how well founded these concerns are, but they definitely are concerns. It could lead to our company leaving the area."

If Austin felt he had a conflict of interest because his family business was on the same street as the proposed jail site how could it not bother our two Moore County Commissioners, Caddell and Picerno, that thier software business which is contracted to Moore County was not an issue of conflict of interest. Caddell, Picerno, and Melton had no problem with voting on this jail and robbed Moore County citizens of their right to vote. I guess commissioners and building prices vary greatly from county to county.

FYI-The Yadlin County jail plans are currently on hold due to a rezoning law suit filed by residents.The location of the future jail at this time has not been determined.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 10 months ago

You like Yadkin County so much Mrs. M, why don't you move there?

dustyrhoades 2 years, 10 months ago

:-) Doubt you could afford me, BigDog.

GodSaves 2 years, 10 months ago

@dustyrhoades "Fact is, the anti-jail faction lost the election, so now they want bite after bite at the same apple by demanding a referendum every time they don't like something."

Fact is, I am not part of the anti-jail faction that lost the election. Be blessed:)

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

GodSaves

I would point out to Dusty the letter to the Editor is from Pinehurst that we are all commenting on. This impending 200 million dollar debt is a problem for all of Moore County and will most likely result one day in property reevaluation and higher taxes. Picerno said at the hearing that if it fails to pay for itself it could result in "court ordered taxes". It is the people of Moore County that will be effected and are now complaining. Note letter to the Editor.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 10 months ago

Mrs. M, I thought you weren't talking to me any more :-).

dustyrhoades 2 years, 10 months ago

"Yadkin County Commissioner Kevin Austin recused himself from voting on the jail since his family owned company the Austin Company is across the street from the proposed Hoots Road site (four miles outside of town)."

So since you clearly own property close to the jail, property which is for sale, don't you have a conflict of interest? Should you not recuse yourself from this discussion?

When you spread the net as wide as you have, you risk getting caught in it yourself.

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

Best line from Pinehurst resident Richard Palin's letter: "I am amazed by this arrogance".Do you think they were afraid of a public referendum? We now will pay a higher interest rate on Limited Obligation Bonds than if we had a public referendum and were able to vote on General Obligation bonds at a lower interest rate. I agree "pure arrogance".

dustyrhoades 2 years, 10 months ago

"I am amazed by dusty's arrogance - perhaps he should recuse himself from any comments, as he stands to benefit financially from an expanded detention center "

spe·cious (spshs) adj. 1. Having the ring of truth or plausibility but actually fallacious: a specious argument.

No one has yet provided a credible explanation of how I'm supposed to profit from a bigger detention center. New criminal cases arise as a result of new arrests, regardless of the size of the jail.

eflat7 2 years, 10 months ago

Dusty, you are cracking me up.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 10 months ago

So tell me maude...how is a bigger detention center a financial advantage for me? I'm all ears.

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

"Alternatives to County Jails and Detention Centers by Dr. Michael Santera posted on the Pilots Latest Readers Blogs is an interesting read. Dr. Santera states "In other states, counties build jails larger than they need and then rent the extra beds to other counties and even the federal government." Tim Lea gave the number of 840 beds for this new Detention Center at the Womens League of Voters. Sounds like a lot of future businessfor bail bondsmen and lawyers like Mr. Specious.

Bflat 2 years, 10 months ago

Oh wait! Now the folks in Pinehurst are beginning to wake up and worry that their tax bills are going to go up to pay for the new DC.

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

Bflat The new DC is just the beginning.The Commissioners next need to buy land for the Government Complex Center. Then they must build the Government Complex Center and remodel the existing Court House which is already way overcrowded. So, a good estimate is that Moore County's debt will pass 200 million. So, where are the most expensive properties that will get taxed the highest? I think Pinehurst is the answer and Southern Pines.

clbvpm 2 years, 10 months ago

plumplevel ~ "The new DC is just the beginning.The Commissioners next need to buy land for the Government Complex Center."
....It is my understanding that the county already owns this property. Isn't it near the county offices in the Carriage Shopping Center? There has been discussion on this site that the proposed detention center be built there, rather than on the Grimm property.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 10 months ago

maude, there is so much ignorance and irrationality in your reasoning that it's difficult to know where to start.

"don't bonded out people need lawyers -"

Yes, and so do people who haven't bonded out. I don't get any more criminal cases unless there are more arrests. And that doesn't have anything to do with the size of the jail. It has to do with numbers and activity of law enforcement.

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

clbvpm I asked last week and was told the entire Government Complex project was on the shelf for the moment. I was told it is not decided where it will go.I asked if the architects plans, which cost close to $400k , could be adapted to a new site to save money and no one knows.

I called Solutions for Government and was told they had recommended tearing down the old jail and building a new court house where the old jail is connecting to a new DC by an underground tunnel.The taxpayer paid for this study and the advice of Solutions for Government was ignored. I think you will agree with me this would have been a better idea. I believe you have written yourself that a connecting underground tunnel is the best way to go. I would have been happier with this as a new court house connected to a jail on the Grimm property would have limited the size of the jail since the land has so many artesian wells and drainage problems.Now they plan to just remodel the existing court house and I think when the sheriffs department is built they will have that added space under the court house.

I am not an expert on what they plan to do. It would be nice if there was such a thing as an old fashion town meeting that we could ask these questions.Please inquire for yourself and consider this heresay.

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

clbvpm I mean "hearsay".

TheNeedle 2 years, 10 months ago

You're complaining about the cost of the jail as it is, and you want to bore an underground tunnel instead? And you really think THAT will be cheaper?

Are you on some sort of medication? You might want to get the levels checked, because you are almost certainly hallucinating.

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

TheNeedle - Check on your own hypodermic...

Re: underground tunnel I was only repeating what Solutions for Government advised. I personally want the whole thing out in the sticks somewhere. All of it. I think someone figured out Caddell could have bought 300 acres outside of Carthage for the price of the Grimm land.

TheNeedle 2 years, 10 months ago

And just who the devil are these Solutions For Government people and why should we care what they think?

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

They were paid by the taxpayers to do a study to determine the needs of the court house and its projected needs. I believe Judge Webb requested it. It appears Caddell, Picerno, and Melton threw it in the trash.(They do not sell that kind of software - no interest.) Solutions for Government is in Charlotte. Call them. You paid for the study too and it is public info.

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

Needle The man who did the study is named Steve Allen.He came and toured the Court House. If you cut down on your meds I might even give you his phone number.

SoPinesNo1 2 years, 10 months ago

Steve Allen is a friend of former County Manager Steve Wyatt. That's how he showed up here in Moore County in the first place, Steve Wyatt brought in all his buddies. He brought in an incompetent Planning Director, he brought in McGill Associates, and they were paid to rewrite the water study that was done by Hobbs, Upchurch and Associates years earlier. Steve Wyatt is out, and useless Cary McSwain is in, so studies ordered by the former manager are out as well. And the tax payers get to pay for it all.

There is an old saying that states a person rises to their level of incompetence. There is an excess of that in Moore County government.

right2vote 2 years, 10 months ago

well put mr. palin. we have been trying to stay on point but keep being sidetracked by nonsense. thank you for trying and please keep telling your friends and neighbors that this is an important issue. we need all the citizens of moore county to be aware that this expenditure of 50 million dollars is just the beginning. and, for the record, mr. attorney rhoades, we are not "jail opponents", we are "site opponents" and fiscally responsible citizens with a voice.

TheNeedle 2 years, 10 months ago

"Steve Allen is a friend of former County Manager Steve Wyatt. That's how he showed up here in Moore County in the first place, Steve Wyatt brought in all his buddies. "

So this wonderful Solutions for Government who had this wonderful impractical plan had its own conflicts of interests, no?

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

I went back and looked at "A comprehensive Space Need Assessment of the Moore County Courthouse" 15 March 2010 by Solutions for Government requested by Superior Court Judge Webb.(This report is paid for by the taxpayers of MC.) I am afraid I made a mistake it was their second option I reported on a previous blog. Their first recommended option was to place a three story 50,000 sq.ft. new Court House lower on the Grimm property below the future Detention Center site.

The "projected case filings" in the MC court system have increased from 50,500 in 1980 to 88,468 today to a projected 118, 484 in 2030. The projected increase of court cases is 31.4% from 2010 to 2030. The current Moore County Court House has already outgrown itself. The estimated cost of a new 116,700 gsf new court house would be 21.7 million.

The current court house is overcrowded and out dated as proved in this report. It is also documented with photos proving their point.Without a doubt a new court house is needed and it will not work to expand the current one.This report is available in a disc from Laura Williams, Clerk of the MC Board of Commissioners.

On July 1, 2009 the Moore County Courthouse Advisory Committee said: 1.) "Ask the Board of Commissioners to hold off on their decision where the government complex would be placed until after the court house study is completed"; and that 2.) "the court facility be adjacent or near the detention center."

Both requests were denied by Picerno, Melton, and Caddell. They voted to move ahead with the Detention Center and totally ignored the recommendations of Solutions for Government and the request from Superior Court Judge Webb. It appears Caddell, Picerno, and Webb have taken the largest piece of the pie for themselves and denied the MC court system what it needs.Why?

I am in agreement with Mr. Palin as he wrote in his Letter to the Editor, "I am amazed at this arrogance."

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

Summary Comments from the Solutions for Government "A Comprehensive Space Needs Assessment of the Moore County Court House" 15 march 2010 Report Contents 7.Summary and Recommendations: "Fixing Old Mistakes Is Never Easy (meaning the current court house). Needs of the Moore County Courthouse are serious and urgent. The major issues identified cannot be fixed with a building addition."

Growth rate statistics from the N.C. Office of Budget and Management is 31.4% for Moore County and between 2010 and July 2030 it will be 16% each decade. N.C. Administration of the Courts says in 2008 there were 35,813 cases filed In 2009 there were 31,841 filed

The rumor is the plan is to renovate the current courthouse and the old courthouse for a minimum amount compared to the new DC. The Solutions for Government report proves this will not work. How can Caddell and Picerno, be so self centered and plan to build a 110,000 sq ft Public Safety Center which will use their law enforcement and public safety software for 40 million. Please get a copy of this report just to see what self interest politicians they really are. I hope they get their day in court for cheating the justice system of Moore County.

Bflat 2 years, 10 months ago

More "studies" and then the advice doesn't get followed. Looks like money was wasted yet again.

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

SoPinesNo1 N.C. breeds so many "lap dogs" like McSwain, Melton, etc. that they have to keep the puppy mills going. Needle No Solutions for Government did not have its own conflict of interest. It is a well documented presentation.Would like to know how much the taxpayer paid for it before the Cad, Pic,and Melt threw it in the trash.

horseylady 2 years, 10 months ago

I am still not getting any answers to the questions:

How does the jail qualify for a limited obligation/revenue bond? How can it be self supporting, as a revenue bond should be? Are we going to bring in outside prisoners?

If this jail is going to help the local economy, who is going to pay for all this help? The taxpayer?

MRFUZZ 2 years, 10 months ago

We wouldnt even need a new jail if the clerks and judges got together and figure out how to speed up the judical system! Its a matter of initiative!I think that if half the people that are in jail waiting to get sent to DOC(prison) actually got sent, then the jail would NOT be over crowded!!!But like i said,its a mater of initiative!

FaithinUSA 2 years, 10 months ago

dustyrhoades says...

You like Yadkin County so much Mrs. M, why don't you move there?

Why is dustyrhoades so disrespectful and arrogant twords people who have a different opinion then him?

dustyrhoades 2 years, 10 months ago

I don't know, faith, but perhaps you should read some of the other posters here, who've referred to county commissioners as tyrants or "The Mafia", derided people who disagree with THEM by claiming their opinion should have been tagged "paid for by Southern Software", brought their personal grudges against posters and letter writers into the discussion, etc.

This board wasn't any kind of model of civility and decorum before I joined up, and it won't be when I leave, so your outrage about rudeness and arrogance seems to be determined solely by which side you're on. I call that hypocrisy.

Never mind. Ron White had the right idea. And so does this guy:

http://xkcd.com/386/

Toodles. Enjoy the the never-ending hate-fest.

clbvpm 2 years, 10 months ago

Dusty ~ Ron White does have it right...we need an "express lane." BTW, I don't think you are his attorney, but did I hear this correctly. Is Randy Baughn, the man charged with killing his wife (the Pinecrest assistant principal) out of jail awaiting his murder trial? If so, do you know why? I heard all of this at a church function this week.

None 2 years, 10 months ago

Jerry D. Rhoades Jr. ~ I'm the poster who wrote a thread that CBC - Power of Three meets the definition of Mafia. Heck man take the time to look it up for yourself. This whole issue resolves around lack of transparency, conflict of interest which are real and not imagined, working on SCC budgets and then voting on the budget. Then throw into the mix public concerns of improper conduct with Caddell and Picerno's affilitation with Southern Software....Doesn't anyone find it most interesting that Southern Software is in Southern Pines their police department doesn't use it. Could it have anything to do with gifts to law enforcement has strings attached. Perhaps SPPD didn't want to be associated with implied favortism....their officers don't even get free coffee. So as an attorney isn't Law Enforcement held to a higher standard of accepting gifts, then perhaps you haven't defended any cases of gifts to politicians?

But then again it happens in Washington all of the time...

None 2 years, 10 months ago

clodfelter37 ~ absoutely... and using your train of thought why is everyone complaining about Washington politics and the Obama Administration? They were elected - so the TEA party should quit moaning about how our money is spent....Only exception Washingon representitives can't have interest or own a company doing business with the government until they leave office. Unlike Moore County!

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

Moore County Commissioners Meeting Notes from July 20, 2009: Judge Webb stated before the MC Board of Commissioners on May 18, 2009, the number of pending cases in Moore County Courthouse was 8,373. He stated this number had increased to 8.977 at the end of June 2009.

Picerno thanked Judge Webb for the work he was doing on the Moore County Court House Advisory Committee. Picerno concluded by stating the courts definitely had a real need for space. Picerno later in the meeting went on to vote against waiting on the Solutions for Government study and voted to place the Government Complex Center on the Grimm property leaving no room for a courthouse. Solutions for Government later would recommend building a new 27 million dollar court house on the Grimm property.I guess Picerno did not really mean it when he said there is a real need for more court house space.

Out with the courthouse and in with even more Southern Software as if the jail, sheriffs office, and 911 center would not have been enough. Why would Caddell and Picerno be interested in a court house?? They don't sell that kind of software.This way it would be one stop shopping to showcase and test their new software with the DC, Sheriffs Office, 911 Center, and Government Complex Center(which has since been shelved).What more could these businessmen hope for and have the taxpayer pay for it all.

Question is if the Yadkin County 150 bed Jail cost only 8.2 million dollars and they claim they can add 40 more beds for $400,000 that totals 8.7 million for a comparison. How is our 190 bed DC, Sheriffs Office, and 911 Center costing 40 million dollars? I thought prisons were meant to be "plain places built to discourage inmates from coming back" as OXBNC wrote on another blog. How did you say this 40 million palace was to be decorated? The Yadkin Jail must be so so plain. Why are we getting such an expensive Public Safety Complex and denying the requests of a Superior Court Judge?

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

clbvpm 2 years, 10 months ago

plumblevel ~ " Moore County Commissioners Meeting Notes from July 20, 2009: Judge Webb stated before the MC Board of Commissioners on May 18, 2009, the number of pending cases in Moore County Courthouse was 8,373. He stated this number had increased to 8.977 at the end of June 2009. " ....Now please don't yell at me. My computer can't take it. I'm just asking. Wouldn't night courts be a solution to this problem, AS WELL AS, the overcrowding problem in the detention center. Other counties have night courts.

plumblevel 2 years, 10 months ago

clbvpm Not going to yell. Yes, I agree night courts would help.Just don't know if you are going to get judges to work at night around here and the attorneys will not be happy about it. I am not sure if night court figured in as a solution on this report or not. I will reread and get back to you on that one.

The Solutions for Gov report concentrates on lack of space and projected growth of cases and the population. For example, lack of storage space in the current courthouse would not be remedied by nightcourt.They estimate the current space GSF(gross sq ft) is 38,414, the current need is 65,815, the current deficit 27,401, the additional 20 year need is 31,434, and the Total Need by 2030 is 97,258 gsf. So, nightcourt would help but not solve the sq ft need and remodeling will not fix this huge need for sq ft either. I believe just remodeling will be a waste of taxpayers money.

I think the whole Public Safety/Gov Complex/Court House problem should have been dealt with more balance.The needs of the court and its cost to build new should have been recognized. So, a little less for the DC, a little more for the judicial system, and a fair third to the Gov Complex.Seems fair to me. I think in this economy all need to scale back a little in new construction.

Maybe they should let the bloggers weigh in to fix things and then start with a night court!

horseylady 2 years, 10 months ago

to any attorneys out there: (Dusty?) Can you explain the legality of passing a limited obligation bond for a jail? The definition of a LO (revenue) bond, as I understand it, is that is can support itself, therefore does not need public approval. How does a jail qualify for this?

Bond Issue Not Justified

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