When Did 'Elite' Become a Dirty Word?

Friday, December 3, 2010

I recently stumbled upon an article about Rupert Murdoch's obsession with taking control of The New York Times corporation if he can't put it out of business.

It seems Mr. Murdoch, a conservative Australian billionaire media mogul who already controls The Wall Street Journal, Fox News, MySpace.com and 45 television channels throughout the country, despises The Times because it is, in his words, "elite."

I have trouble understanding why something or someone perceived as being "elite" should be the source of such distaste and anger. When I was growing up, we were regularly encouraged by parents and teachers to become a member of the elite, even if not in so many words.

Merriam-Webster's defines elite as "the choice part" and "the best of class," while the online source yourdiction-ary.com calls it: "the group or part of a group selected as the finest, best, most distinguished, or most powerful."

Coincidentally, while I was pondering Murdoch's desire to decimate The Times, two news stories emerged about men who unarguably have ranked among the elite of their respective peers.

The first concerned a memorial dedicated this past Sept. 11 in West Chester, Pa., to Michael Horrocks, the co-pilot of United Flight 175, the second plane to hit the twin towers.

My nephew was also a pilot for United on that fateful day, having arrived back on the East Coast earlier that morning after serving as first officer aboard a flight from San Francisco. He and Mike were very close friends. They met as enlisted officers in the Marines where Mike flew C-130s and my nephew piloted helicopters. They were so close they joined United together and stood up as best man at each other's weddings.

Whenever people discuss Mike, they do so in superlatives. He "was the best of the best," or "he always handled pressure with ease," and "his word was as good as gold."

Mike was a star quarterback in college who joined the Marines to pursue his dream of becoming a pilot. His skill as a pilot was recognized when he was selected to be a flight instructor, a position that was well suited to his ability to inspire those around him to achieve excellence. It is widely acknowledged that only the best pilots, an elite group, are chosen as flight instructors.

Another man known for being the best and inspiring others is Dr. Craig Thompson, the recently appointed president and CEO of Memorial-Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York City. I met Craig when he was in his 20s and completing his studies at Dartmouth Medical School, which he had entered at the age of 19.

Craig finished his medical degree at the University of Pennsylvania and then served eight years as a naval medical officer while conducting research at some of the most renowned cancer centers in the country. Recently, I listened intently as Craig spoke on the televised StandUp2Cancer fundraiser.

His passion for that organization's work was evident as he described the headway his nationwide collaborative team is making in its race to find effective treatments for pancreatic cancer. The task is daunting, since currently 98 per cent of all patients with pancreatic cancer die within one year of diagnosis.

Still, it doesn't surprise me that Craig is upbeat. "Can't" is not a word in his vocabulary, and his cancer research, though sometimes controversial, has also resulted in wide acclaim for his dedication and innovation. He is one of only a handful of cancer scientists elected to the National Academy of Sciences, holds a number of patents in immunology, and has founded two biotechnology companies. As he moves to Sloan-Kettering, Dr. Craig Thompson is embarking upon another challenging chapter in a life that already reads like a comic book superhero.

So as I reflect on Mike and Craig's lives and Mr. Murdoch's desire to bring down The New York Times for being elite, I wonder how and where the concept got skewered.

Elite-bashing isn't only Rupert Murdoch's obsession these days, but he has one of the biggest stages. I can only hope that when he, or anyone else, spouts off about how awful "the elite" are, people will think about who they want piloting their airplanes, working on finding cures for cancer, or serving in the Special Forces - and thank their lucky stars that there are men and women out there rising above mediocrity and meeting extraordinary challenges every single day.

Beth Daniels, of Southern Pines, is director of development for the MIRA Foundation, based in Aberdeen. Contact her at bdanielstempi@hotmail.com.

More like this story

ProudYankee 2 years, 5 months ago

Bravo, a wonderful column. I find it shocking how flaunting ones ignorance is admired in some parts of our society today, and well educated people are scoffed at as being "out of touch"

CSmithson 2 years, 5 months ago

I think the "elite" many rail against is the #3 definition found at dictionary.com:

"a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group"

This meaning of the word is not so directly related to achievement or competence and pertains more to power/control held by a select few.

marathonman 2 years, 5 months ago

When those who believe they are elite began leaning towards the left; politics, education and Hollywood, indicating they were special and in a position, due to any number of self conceded attributes, to be better able to tell others what, when and how to do any and all things.

Bflat 2 years, 5 months ago

It sounds like politics when certain people have power over others and do whatever they want. That is one reason why elite has taken on a new meaning that leaves distaste and anger with the majority of people that have grown very tired of it being overused on TV and in media. Being the best and most distinguished is more favorable than being powerful over others as far as our society and community is concerned.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

marathonman,

To begin with, your comment is not even a proper sentence.

Are we to conclude that so long as "those who believe they are the elite" lean to the right it's o.k.?

Still waiting for you to describe just exactly it was that Valarie Plame and her husband, Ambassador Wilson, were trying to "get away with," which yu accused them of in an earlier post of yours.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

"As the 21st century began, human evolution was at a turning point. Natural selection, the process by which the strongest, the smartest, the fastest, reproduced in greater numbers than the rest, a process which had once favored the noblest traits of man, now began to favor different traits. Most science fiction of the day predicted a future that was more civilized and more intelligent. But as time went on, things seemed to be heading in the opposite direction. A dumbing down. How did this happen? Evolution does not necessarily reward intelligence. With no natural predators to thin the herd, it began to simply reward those who reproduced the most, and left the intelligent to become an endangered species."

-Mike Judge, "Idiocracy"

I recommend this movie, which is starting to look less and less like social satire and more like a documentary.

JER 2 years, 5 months ago

ChiefHammer: Thanks for taking the time away from your hack news source that panders to the far extreme right and your hero, Rush Limburger, to contribute to this dicussion.

Sally244 2 years, 5 months ago

The first thing invading armies did was to kill the intelligent! Anyone who says that people who think for themselves are the elite are trying to bring down our culture!

marathonman 2 years, 5 months ago

jimt - duh! No, but I agree with Sally244. And you will continue to wait, since what I said previously was that D.R.'s assessment of the Valerie Plame issue was not factual and if you do not have the facts about a specific thing, do not offer what you have heard on the 6 o'clock news as truth. Opinion is a way to get our ideas across without being specific about facts. All of us have life's experiences working in us and they boil around a current event or idea and we give forth with our opinion. Under the lefties, you will not have either of the options; factual idea exchange and/or opinion.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

marathonman, I'm willing to go out on a bit of a limb here, but I don't think Sally244 was thinking of you when she suggested that invading armies target the intelligent -- just a suspicion on my part.

So Dusty, what did you say about Valarie Plame that was not factual. Apparently marathonman will not deign to inform me in this regard. One can't help wondering what he knows about Ms. Plame that you and I do not? He won't tell us. Gosh, you think maybe he hasn't got the foggiest idea what he's talking/ranting about?

nothingspecial 2 years, 5 months ago

OReilly did a good talking points about "Elite Media", including the New York Times, in 2004:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113614,00.html

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

So I put the question to James as well. What are you a mm talking about/referring to?

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

You know you're not going to get more than an evasion or off-topic sarcasm in answer to your question, jimt. The facts are not on their side so all they do is go "you're wrong" and pretend they've actually made an argument.

Sally244 2 years, 5 months ago

James, what I find so strange is how the republican identity has changed so dramatically since I grew up. My family and everyone I knew was a republican. That meant educated, successful, well-off people who worked hard, had good work ethics, considered to be leaders in their community and were regarded as the elite.

So now, being a republican is to be against the educated, successful/privileged and embraces ignorance. Wants to force Christianity down the throats of everyone and refuses to see the importance of science in protecting the future of human kind.

I've never seen such a brainless group of people willing to follow an equally brainless woman who is dumbing down this country by making stupid and ignorant statements and trying to criminalize being elite! And don't get me started on her belief in fairy tales and thinks humans and dinosaurs lived on this planet together.! Believe me, if she were ugly or a man no intelligent person would have considered her to be your ring leader. She would have been laughed out of town.

So if following such ignorance isn't attempting to destroy the intelligent I don't know what is.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

Dusty,

I'm a little hyper-sensitive when it comes to criticism of Valarie Plame. I was with the CIA for many years. I knew several NOC's, although I did not know her. NOC's (non-official cover) work overseas without benefit of diplomatic cover. They "work" as civilians, as business people. They can, if their cover is blown, be arrested at any time and cannot be protected under international law as it pertains to the treatment of diplomats. In her case, she was quite literally risking her life, given some of the countries in which she worked.

So when marathonman intimates that she was "trying to get away with something" I want to know what he was referring to. To me she, and all NOCs are heroes. So he and James better have "facts" on their side to suggest she did anything untoward. But of course, they won't communicate their "facts," they just make unsupported attacks on her and her husband.

Lost in the hysteria that Joe Wilson's report on whether or not Niger supplied Iraq with uranium (he concluded they Niger had not done so) was somehow political, aimed at undermining the Bush rationale for war, seems to be the fact that analysis after the war confirms the accuracy of his report -- there is absolutely no proof that Niger secretly supplied uranium to Iraq after the first Gulf War. But facts don't seem to matter to the "right," when they get in the way of their "opinions," and "beliefs."

Bflat 2 years, 5 months ago

Scapegoats are used to take the heat off the real problem at hand. Just cast all the attention at them and not the real facts.

marathonman 2 years, 5 months ago

jimt - I too worked many many years for the CIA. Unlike you, I will not wash laundry in public. There are still many serving who could be damaged by commenting on sources and methods. I still tell you that I did not say they were 'trying to cover up anything'. I said that Dusty Rhodes does not understand all there is to the story and should not make judgements based on what he has heard on the 6:30 news. I believe that neither you nor I know all of that story and, therefore, should refrain from further comments. "Anyone who says that people who think for themselves are the elite are trying to bring down our culture!" This is the part of Sally244 that I agree with. Socialism/Communism does have as a tenant to success a belief that intellectuals, not a part of the revolution, should be neutralized.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

jimt: I've catalogued some of the ways the wingnuts and TPers evade actual debate, especially when they're demonstrably wrong. I posted a list on my wall:

http://www.thepilot.com/marketplace/users/dustyrhoades/

It might save time in future to just tag them by number. Example:

Chief Hammer:

"So this long drawn out story and you fail to mention that the NY Times is nothing but a hack news organization that panders to the far extreme left along with your hero George Soros"

December 3, 2010 at 8:28 a.m"

Tagged as BSWATs #4, #5.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

So, mm, you can't tell me where I was inaccurate becuase it's a secret?

marathonman 2 years, 5 months ago

jimt - for the record, this is what I wrote about Valeria Plame previously in response to D.R.: "And stop saying things about the CIA and Valerie Plame, you have no idea how wrong you are." On the last point D.R...The New York Times is a lefty rag!

marathonman 2 years, 5 months ago

D.R. to reiterate my previous comments: "I said that Dusty Rhodes does not understand all there is to the story and should not make judgements based on what he has heard on the 6:30 news. I believe that neither you nor I know all of that story and, therefore, should refrain from further comments." Civility prevents me from commenting on anyone's ability to read and understand what is written herein.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

Ah, the old "appeal to authority".

"An appeal to authority is an argument from the fact that a person judged to be an authority affirms a proposition to the claim that the proposition is true.

Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true."

nothingspecial 2 years, 5 months ago

Most often, within the context of political discussions, groups are called "Elites" when they complain that another group is against a supposedly educated position or science because members of that other group are labeled to be not very smart or enlightened. A point related to the whole game is that it is basic human nature not to want to be "preached to" by anyone once you have decided that person is "wrong" or not worthy of being listened to for some reason. In matters of politics and religion it is often thought that dismissal of one or the other view is more subjective than objective.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

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jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

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marathonman 2 years, 5 months ago

jimt and D.R. - I did write that some time ago and stand by it. It is my opinion based on some inside knowledge of the system. Ganging up on someone and continually mistating their position is gamesmanship taken to the limit. Having spent 27 years with the Agency, I never met anyone like you jimt. Most of those with whom I associated were patriots and conservatives. And your contemptuous and fallacious insinuation that I was not an honored employee is noted. Secondly, personal attacks such as you make on my ability to write when noting some of your submissions hereto are, if nothing else, humorous. Finally, the Pilot should do the right thing and shut this discussion down since it has gone far afield from the subject.

marathonman 2 years, 5 months ago

Further to you jimt - have you not violated my freedom to write here with anonimity by quoting something I wrote under true name. Why did the pilot not catch that and stop it?

marathonman 2 years, 5 months ago

Finally, and I mean it this time. It may be that my last is in error and that I did write it under marathonman. If so, mea culpa. But, jimt since you are defending Valeria Plame and her behavior, I want nothing more to do with you. While employed she did all she could to embarass a sitting President with malicious behavior purely politically motivated. Not one CIA employee that I knew while I served would have lasted an hour given what she did.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

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jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

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moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago

"Elite" became a dirty word when a whole bunch of Americans in 1980 voted for RONALD REAGAN. He and his ilk rolling into Washington DC in their Wagon Trains dumbed our country down to almost "Ma and PA Kettle" levels(I do admit though those Kettles' were kind funny). We haven't recovered intellectually, and that administration did so much damage to the overall well-being of Americans that recovery hasn't been possible for very many since. Then again, I think it was part of their "PLAN".

Tell me, CIA guys out there, just how does the AGENCY blow all the "DUMB DUST" over this country so effectively? Was it just too easy to make so many people gullible and incurious? How did you make them buy so many material things? Giving our Federal Reserve money to the already rich and wealthy? Charge carding it up out there almost to oblivion! You're good though. It has worked. When "Elite" is a bad word, then those who are less inclined to read books and therefore watch (so-called FOXNEWS)are comforted by their "not-so-smart therefore less threatening" buddies.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

I think you have the CIA confused with the Republican Party.

Everyone I met there were honorable and honest people doing their best, often at great personal sacrifice, to provide policy makers with the honest, unvarnished (and therefore often unwanted) truth regarding the actions of other governments. Sorry if that doesn't jibe with your conception about what goes on there.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

Ah, so there we have it, mm. Your distaste for Valerie Plame has nothing to do with national security. She "embarrassed sitting President". Of course, the efforts taken by the right to embarrass the current sitting President don't seem to bug you at all, so I can only assume by "sitting President" you mean "Republican President."

And as for 'what she did'--you mean get her cover blown in retaliation for her husband exposing Dubbya as a liar when he said "documents showed" Saddam was buying yellowcake from Niger when everyone, including the CIA director, knew those documents were forgeries?

Oh, sorry, I forgot. She did something else really heinous, but you can't TELL us. It's a SECRET.

Pfft. You're done.

moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago

Twilight Zone checking in again. I think it a total disgrace when a "Former" President writes his Autobiography and in it he states that his worst moments as President where when a "Rap Musician/Kanye West" and "Movie Maker/Michael Moore" said BAD things about him. The fact that a hard working dedicated Government Employee of the CIA gets dangerously "OUTED" by said Presidents' Vice President and his Henchmen doesn't totally outrage him shows how horribly MENTAL and DYSFUNCTIONAL said President was/is. First direct mainland attack/hit by terrorists, two unfunded wars, worst hurricane aftermath in US history, and the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression? This person is by far too horrible to even try to comprehend. So, I won't; although it could have been either MOM'S fetus in a bottle or that very dry dusty and thick Texas air.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

"have you not violated my freedom to write here with anonimity by quoting something I wrote under true name."

Anyone else see the irony in marathonman not having any problem with an actual intelligence agent's cover being blown, but sees it as a "violation of freedom" to possibly having the alias he hides behind in a local newspaper website being revealed?

moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago

When you're a "retired" CIA agent how IMPORTANT are you still to "The Agency"? I've seen lots of former agents giving their "Expert Opinions" on television news programs, so it doesn't seem to be a huge concern.

Valerie was still employed and was exposed by our own government officials as retribution! Isn't that treason in every other world except the world of BUSH Republicans? Gee, it was those ELITISTS again, wasn't it!? Won't they ever go away? Damn that Joe Wilson. Is there any sanity left in this country at all?

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

Before the Pilot's staff determined, after more than a day, that I had somehow violated marathonman's tender feelings with as yet unspecified personal attacks (I've written to Hunter Chase for an explanation), I asked him several pointed questions regarded Valerie Plame's alleged sins. I requested specifics that were out in the public record, since that is the only information available to him or me. Silence in response, except for more attacks against her for various, as usual unspecified, additional sins.

I once suggested simply refusing to reply to the long arrogant hateful screeds of a now banned commentator. I suggest the same for marathonman. I'll play amateur psychologist here; in my opinion he gives every indication of being a bitter and probably old gentlemen who can't adjust to the fact that white conservative men no long hold an exclusive monopoly on power in this Country. More to be pitied than anything else. Let him vent, don't read his posts, he'll get frustrated and go away.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

Welcome back, jimt!

jamjam 2 years, 5 months ago

I think the time has come to distinguish between class and best of class. The extraordinary deeds preformed by others should draw accolades. The term Elite does not represent the best of class as much as it does the top one percent of those that hold Capital. There's the problem, the top one percent.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

I'm quite relaxed thank you. If you've been following the discussion I think you'll agree I'm the one who has demonstrated calm, reason, and a search for details in order to get mm to back up his hateful accusations and shameful slanders with facts. He's not going to, now or ever. So why bother acknowledging or entering into anything akin to a dialogue with him? It's utterly pointless.

Now, back to those s'mores.

jamjam 2 years, 5 months ago

when did elite become a dirty word? when the middle class was disassembled. when more families were down graded to the poverty level. when the increase in the number of starving people around the planet nearly reached a billion. somethings wrong and it's not the republic that we claim as our own. its capitalism that we have perverted for personal gain. Marx may have been right.

hotdiggity 2 years, 5 months ago

Elite becomes a dirty word when the term is applied by people to themselves, and then looking down their nose at all the rest of people. Obama implied it with his 'bitter clingers' comments. Even the New York Times used it when they laughed at their very own subscribers for being too stupid to read their credit card bills as the paper increased subscription rates.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

"She could not be "outed" because she was not an operative. "

Lie.

BigE 2 years, 5 months ago

I love when the righteous ones tell us that only they are patriots. This essay helps show the two perspectives. It is interesting for those who enjoy looking at both sides of an issue.

(BTW, James, you can refrain from dropping one of those childish cookie lines you like, I had a big breakfast.)

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/01/patriotism_conservative_and_li.php

moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago

According to Patrick Fitzgerald's SPECIAL COUNCIL, Valerie Plame was considered a "Classified CIA employee".....and she was outed. Of course Scooter Libby took the fall for those other weasels. I'm sure that Cheney had blackmail info to get him to do that or else Libby was just a real dupe. Then again maybe Cheney paid him lots of Halliburton loot. Joe Wilson wrote his editorial against Bush's assertion that Iraq had WMD in July 2003. Then Robert Novak responded a week later...and then Big Dick C. did his thing against Valerie and Joe. Sorry I don't have all the EXACT info as I wasn't privey to all the DARKNESS that swirled around DC., at the time. Th Senate Intelligence Committee after investigating everything stated that, "The key judgements of the Oct. 2002 National Intelligence estimate on Iraq's WMD program were either overstated or were NOT supported by the raw intelligence reporting." I definately live in the real world while way too many others don't. I have no financial problems, I have no foreclosed homes, overdue credit cards, mental health issues, worries about tomorrow, and most importantly I did not produce a stupid child(I taught mine to work, exercise, and study hard...he did). So, what is REAL, what is a nightmare, and what is FANTASY?...to so many of you out there? I notice that many of you don't even try to give me an answer.

JJordan 2 years, 5 months ago

One day when I was in graduate school we, the best and brightest they could attract, were sitting in a Russian History class when the professor was speaking about the movement of the Russian Intelligentsia in the late 19th Century. Then he said, “How many of you consider yourselves to be among the intellectual elite of the United States?” Not a hand went up.

He said, “That is so peculiar. You are in one of the top drawer universities in the United States; in the world for that matter. Students fight to get in here. The fact that you are sitting around this table means that in terms of ability and intelligence you’re in the top ½ of 1% of the people in your field. Yet you don’t consider yourselves to be a part of the ‘elite.’ You’re just a common man like a plumber or a shoemaker. It’s an odd characteristic of the American psyche to denigrate the elite not just in intelligence but in any field. You don’t find it in Europe. You don’t find it in Asia. Only we Americans feel the need to continually play as if we’re Andrew Jackson fighting the Adams Dynasty.” And then we moved on but the thought remained in my mind to this day.

None of us would consider saying to our doctor, “I don’t want a surgeon who trained at Massachusetts General. Give me one who went to a medical school in the Caribbean where they only had one scalpel and everyone had to rinse it off and take turns using it on their one patient. He’s good enough to remove my cancerous tumor.” We’d want the best. We’d want the best teacher for our child, the best plumber for our leak, the best mechanic for our car, the best roofer for our house – we would want the elite. It’s not a dirty word.

Yet when elitism comes up we quickly avoid the topic and start throwing out ad hominem attacks on those we perceive to be “the elite” and their defenders or their attackers. For example, is former President Jimmy Carter a member of “the elite?” I’d say he most definitely is. For a number of reasons (that I won’t go into) I don’t like Mr. Carter or much of anything he accomplished or attempted to accomplish. Having made this statement I’ll guarantee that the reaction will not be a defense of Mr. Carter but instead (1) an attack on me and (2) several attacks on former Presidents Reagan and Bush 43, none of which have anything to do with my statement that I don’t like Mr. Carter or the fact that he is, for better or worse, a member of the American political elite.

The “elite” is simply the best in whatever field we are discussing. There is a liberal “elite,” a conservative “elite;” an “elite” of shoemakers” and, God help us, there is an “elite” of ‘Dancing With the Stars.”

Fortunately networks cancel some elites.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

JJordan: well said.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

Mauiman,

Valarie Plame was an employee of the CIA. She was "undercover." That means that when she was stopped for a traffic ticket in the U.S. or elsewhere, she was "legally" entitled to tell the police officer, a district attorney, a judge, her own defense attorney, that she was employed by "__". In her case, she could not even claim that she was employed by The State Department, or any other U.S. Government Department or Agency. In her case, she was a "NOC," meaning she had "non-official cover." She would seem to be employed by a company or organization not affiliated with the U.S. Government.

That's her back ground. For further proof my friend that she was protected by law and was presumptively entitled to maintain her status by law, i.e. The Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1984, consider the following below:

"According to the indictment [of Scooter Libby], on September 26, 2003, the Department of Justice and the FBI began a criminal investigation into the possible unauthorized disclosure of classified information regarding Valerie Wilson’s CIA affiliation to various reporters in the spring of 2003. In January 2004, the grand jury investigation began examining possible violations of criminal laws prohibiting disclosing the identity of covert intelligence personnel (The Intelligence Identities Protection Act), improperly disclosing national defense information, making false statements to government agents, and perjury. A major focus of the grand jury investigation was to determine which government officials had disclosed to the media prior to July 14, 2003, information concerning Valerie Wilson’s CIA affiliation, and the nature, timing, extent, and purpose of such disclosures, as well as whether any official made such a disclosure knowing that Valerie Wilson’s employment by the CIA was classified information." FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE FRIDAY OCTOBER 28, 2005 www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc>

As you may recall, Scooter Libby was convicted.

Perhaps Mauiman, you should consider watching and reading more news!

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

I should have added, that she was fully protected by Federal Law in telling the law enforcement officials I cited as an example, that she worked for whatever or whoever consistent with her official "cover." I know, because when I was "read in" to the laws concerning identity protection and disclosure it was made clear to me that my employment by the CIA was not "undercover," therefore I had to tell law enforcement when/if asked who I worked for. By contrast, we were explicitly told, in order to clarify the difference between open and covert employees, that a cover employee was fully entitled and protected under Federal law, to tell law enforcement that he/she worked for whatever organization that constituted his/her cover, could fill out financial and other legally binding applications and list his/her cover employment without fear of violating any Federal or State law.

If you still don't believe Valarie Plame was legally entitled to maintain her "cover" status, I suggest to read the Intelligence Identities Act, or any of the numerous articles that have been written that explained why she was so entitled under U.S. law.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

Thanks, jimt. Since I'd already posted the CIA's statement re: Plame's covert status and mauiman had ignored it, I think we're both wasting our time. He'll just keep lying and demanding "proof" that's already been provided over and over in a variety of forums.

You can't kill the Zombie Lie.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

Here's where it was posted BTW:

http://www.thepilot.com/news/2010/dec/01/wickileaks-right-to-know-has-limits/#c24475

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

Source material:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070529_Unclassified_Plame_employement.pdf

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

In this case, just you. The CIA DID confirm she was covert, but you'll never admit it, because you. Are. A. Liar.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

Mauiman, you're wrong. The Act does not require that one had had to service overseas within five years to be covered by the Act. The Act requires that you had to have worked under cover within the last five years to be covered.

"Leak of Agent's Name Causes Exposure of CIA Front Firm"

By Walter Pincus and Mike Allen Washington Post Staff Writers Saturday, October 4, 2003; Page A03

The leak of a CIA operative's name has also exposed the identity of a CIA front company, potentially expanding the damage caused by the original disclosure, Bush administration officials said yesterday.

The company's identity, Brewster-Jennings & Associates, became public because it appeared in Federal Election Commission records on a form filled out in 1999 by Valerie Plame, the case officer at the center of the controversy, when she contributed $1,000 to Al Gore's presidential primary campaign.

After the name of the company was broadcast yesterday, administration officials confirmed that it was a CIA front. They said the obscure and possibly defunct firm was listed as Plame's employer on her W-2 tax forms in 1999 when she was working undercover for the CIA. Plame's name was first published July 14 in a newspaper column by Robert D. Novak that quoted two senior administration officials. They were critical of her husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, for his handling of a CIA mission that undercut President Bush's claim that Iraq had sought uranium from the African nation of Niger for possible use in developing nuclear weapons.

The Justice Department began a formal criminal investigation of the leak Sept. 26.

The inadvertent disclosure of the name of a business affiliated with the CIA underscores the potential damage to the agency and its operatives caused by the leak of Plame's identity. Intelligence officials have said that once Plame's job as an undercover operative was revealed, other agency secrets could be unraveled and her sources might be compromised or endangered.

A former diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity said yesterday that every foreign intelligence service would run Plame's name through its databases within hours of its publication to determine if she had visited their country and to reconstruct her activities.

"That's why the agency is so sensitive about just publishing her name," the former diplomat said.

FEC rules require donors to list their employment. Plame used her married name, Valerie E. Wilson, and listed her employment as an "analyst" with Brewster-Jennings & Associates. The document establishes that Plame has worked undercover within the past five years. The time frame is one of the standards used in making determinations about whether a disclosure is a criminal violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. "

Everything else I wrote regarding the legal differences and protections afforded to Agency personnel working undercover also stands.

moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago

Yesterday while on CNN's Fareed Zakaria's show, Bill Maher said it best about the Republicans: "They live in this fantasy world where it's always 1945 and America's number one.....These people love the truth, they just hate the facts."

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

mauiman: BSWATs #4, #8.

And this:

"just because the CIA said she was a CA does not make her a CA"

...is completely absurd.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

"MSNBC is not the final word or most accurate source."

Which is why I linked to a copy of the actual court document, not just an MSNBC report.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

Mauiman: Go to this address: http://uspolitics.about.com/b/2007/05/30/cia-plame-was-covert.htm

Check out the PDF document. Because it is a PDF document I cannot copy it and it is too long to retype. You'll see that she traveled overseas numerous times for undisclosed periods of time during the period that she was working as a "covert" employee in the Agency's Counter Proliferation Center. This travel, always undertaken under the guise of either another identity or as an employee of another non-U.S. Government department or agency, even when she used her own name, made her "covert" under the terms of the law. The document, entitled "Unclassified Summary of Valerie Wilson's CIA Employment and Cover History, was submitted by Patrick Fitzgerald's office to the U.S. District Court.

If you don't understand or believe the veracity of this document, you are hopeless.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

"If you don't understand or believe the veracity of this document, you are hopeless."

jim, mauiman declared himself hopeless when he claimed that just because the CIA said Plame was covert doesn't make her covert. Hopefully other readers will recognize him as such. Stick a fork in him, he's done.

And BTW, if anyone's wondering how we got off on this tangent: in another thread, I pointed out that wingnuts like mauiman and his sock puppet marathonman seemed all exercised about the Wikileaks infodump, which didn't reveal any actual covert operatives, but were just fine with the Bushistas blowing the cover of a real covert operative for political payback. Which of course, revived the old Zombie Lie: "Valerie Plame wasn't covert, even if the CIA says she was, because...because we say so, that's why."

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

That's right, Sir Liesalot, I did. (See, two can play that game). And neither you nor James nor your sock puppet marathonman got nearly as upset about her cover being blown as you did about the Wikileaks dump, which was the original point that you've been trying to distract everyone from.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

Mauiman,

The PDF document can be found in a blog, among other places. The document itself is just as I described it, a history of Plame's employment with the Agency and her legal cover status during said employment as prepared for and submitted to the U.S. District Court in Washingston D.C. by Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerad's office.

I think the Agency knows better than you what her legal status was with regard to the Act.

Finally, the five-year requirement you spoke about in the Act has never been interpreted by the Agency or the Attorney General's office as being "five years" and not a day less. There has always been some flexibility in this regard. I personally knew several people who were under cover, a term used synonomously with "covert," who hadn't lived overseas within five years yet retained covert status. Sometimes there were delays in their posting overseas, sometimes the work they were doing in the U.S. was deemed too important to permit their getting a new overseas posting, sometimes there were personal or family issues, such as the birth of a child, the impending birth of a child, gravely ill parents, etc.

There are people who know more about this issue than you. Valerie Plame was a covert CIA employee when her employment was leaked to the press. Period!!

moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago

James, after the Wikileaks "leaks" it's a bit more than obvious that the only thing America is #1 at is being a total WAR MONGERING/GOSSIPING PIG. Fareed is an extremely successful journalist and Maher is(again)a very successful intelligent comedian. Fareed went to Yale and Harvard, Maher to Cornell. Those are FACTS and not the truth. Gallup pollsters must have been standing outside the book stores that were selling Bush's book to get such a misleading poll. Or else more and more people are getting dumber by the minute. How many times does a person have to explain these FACTS to some of you?!!!! According to the Wahington Post: "On March 3, 2007 Scooter Libby was found GUILTY of lying about his role in the LEAK of Valerie Plame's IDENTITY; two counts of making false statements and one count of obstruction of justice....Bush commuted his sentence." Gee, LYING about his role......is that in other words perhaps considered "OUTING?" And last but certainly NOT least, Scooter went to Yale and Columbia. Those Elites are just running WILD on both sides aren't they?!

moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago

And how do I come to such a conclusion about AMERICA? I watched the "military video's" on WIKILEAKS of our troops in IRAQ shooting people over and over who had no weapons. Shouldn't we at least be killing "ARMED" enemies?

moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago

Sorry James but the video was from a "Bush Era" attack in 2007. I'm sure he, Cheney, and Rumsfeld were drooling at the results. President Obama has at least gotten most of the military troops out of Iraq. Why do FACTS bother so many of you? Apologizing had been a lost art until President Obama showed a bit of humility around the world. American Cowboy Exceptionalism now is doing so well we are behind CHINA in our Educational placement in the world. Dumbing down...what a way to go!

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

"their statement would have been subject to the full measure of court interpetation if the CIA statement would have been used in court."

Mauiman, you really should actually read stuff before you try to handwave it away, then you might not look so foolish.

The CIA statement WAS used in court; it was exhibit "A" to Fitzgerald's sentencing memo, used to illustrate how serious the lie was.

You lose again.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

Dusty,

I think it (Exhibit A) was submitted to show how serious the leak was.

Mauiman actually acknowledged that I might be right. Wow!!

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

Mauiman acknowledged that I might be right.

Just occurred to me that The Pilot might have tomorrow's headline as a result.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

I now that you're desperately trying to handwave away the CIA stating unequivocally that Plame was a covert operative because you know it completely refutes your point. I also know you're failing.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

"Mauiman acknowledged that I might be right."

Well, it was never entered as evidence in court and subject to cross examination so I'm sure he'll claim it doesn't really mean anything.

moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago

Of course there was WMD in Iraq...the West(France, Italy, Germany, USA)gave it to them! Did the CIA fail to read the "Memo" from Centers for Disease Control that they sent anthrax, botulism and West Nile Virus over there? Is insanity still going 'round the revolving doors? The CIA was suppossed to find out how much of the stuff they had left over after killing a lot of the Kurds and Iranians. Why do we have to keep fighting "friends" who have turned on us? Shouldn't the CIA start looking into how we can keep from doing that? At this point I'm really not sure if the COWBOYS or the ELITES can come up with a decent plan to stop the madness unless maybe that's their plan B. MADNESS.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

So? Whether or not the judge fund it relevant in the guilt phase of the obstruction trial doesn't affect the fact that the CIA stated officially that Plame was a covert operative before her cover was blown. You keep grasping at straws here.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

The bottom line.

When Valerie Plame's name entered the public record as a covert CIA employee and that she worked in the Non Proliferation Center:

-- Any counterespionage agency overseas that was worth a damn would check to see if she had ever entered their country under her real name or whether anyone purporting to work for the CIA cover company that "employed" her had entered the country.

-- They would try to determine who she met with while in their country.

-- If they succeeded in doing so, that person(s) would be brought in for questioning, that questioning might get heated and painful for the citizen brought in.

-- Depending on what the counterespionage agency learned during such questioning, additional people might be brought in for questioning, and again, it might get heated and painful.

-- We have reason to believe that Plame was engaged in running operation(s) overseas.

-- With her cover blown, and as a result of counterespionage responses, this operation(s) may have been canceled, or worse, compromised and foreign nationals involved arrested, or worse.

All to discredit her husband, whose report, we now was spot-on accurate, Iraq did not buy and Niger did not sell or forward any yellowcake to Iraq subsequent to the first Gulf War.

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

Obviously the Agency cannot come out and say, "she was running operations!" But that's what she did. That's what NOC's do. They either gather information from foreign nationals while in their country and perhaps are involved in operations being run there as well, or they run operations that are taking place overseas while they themselves are in the States so as to better interface with the support personnel and other "items" and "capabilities" needed to pull off the operation. You don't pay NOC's who are in the U.S. to do things that other Department of Operations personnel in the States do routinely as part of their job descriptions -- most of which can't be discussed in this forum. The whole point of being a NOC is to "operate" overseas, which she did. Was she permanently based overseas for a period of time? I don't know and neither do you. But as Fitzgerald's submission to the DC Court of Appeals makes clear, she traveled overseas on several occasions for unspecified amounts of time...as a NOC. She wasn't on these trips to go shopping or see the sights!

teufelhunden 2 years, 5 months ago

Interesting. You guys should have a beer summit & bury the hatchet.

dustyrhoades 2 years, 5 months ago

mauiman: repeating "She's not a CA just because the CIA said she is", but doing it a more verbose fashion and adding a lot of irrelevant 'observation" about the fact that I'm a lawyer doesn't make the argument any less absurd. You're just endurance trolling now.

moonchild7 2 years, 5 months ago

As I read the indictment of USA vs I. Lewis Libby just about everything in it pertained to "the outing" of a covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame. I didn't seem to read any other evidence/reason that Mr. Libby had been indicted. Now, mauiman, you contend that "Scooter" was only found guilty of lying. If his lies had nothing to do with the "outing" of a CIA agent then what was the indictment for?! Mr. Rhoades, I am not an attorney; I am glad that you are and are in on this conversation. What I'd like to know is; How does a court go about trying someone with the charge's of lying without the substance of the lie playing a major role in the prosecution? People lie all the time but don't get hauled into court. What is mauiman's problem(other than everythng?) Are the FACTS just too much for rightwingnuts to comprehend?

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

mauiman: "jimt - you really do not believe all the stuff you wrote do you? You know for a fact all this?"

Not sure what you are referring to by "...all the stuff..."

But if you're asking whether or not I believe Valerie Plame and Agency personnel like her are heroes...yes I do. Do I believe she was "outed" in some childish act of revenge against her husband....yet I do. Do I have a better understanding of what NOCs did when I was in the Agency, and presumably still do, than you...yes I do.

I have no idea what James is referring to when he says the Senate Intelligence Committee determined that Joe Wilson lied. Maybe he'll share it with us...including site references?

jimt 2 years, 5 months ago

James I tried to look up the Senate Intelligence Report via National Review Online but it was a dead end (try it yourself).

I'm about 99.9% certain that Niger did not sell any yellowcake to Iraq after the first gulf war. I never said Iraq didn't try to buy any, as the author of the article suggests. The British were wrong, it happens. They also reported a high-level secret meeting between Al-Queda and Iraq in the Czech Republic which we now know did not take place. Mistakes were made.

I worked with Dr. David Kay for several years when he and I worked at SAIC. This was after his stint as UN's on site inspector searching for weapons of mass destruction products, manufacturing equipment, etc, and before he was hired by the Agency to go back to Iraq after the Second Iraq War to find the weapons of mass destruction.

He reported to Congress that although he, Bush, Congress, et.al. (including me based on my work at the Agency and at SAIC, where I worked as a Senior Analyst between 1988 - 1998 and where I continued to work on the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction -- as I had with the Agency -- with all of the same security clearances I held when I was with the Agency), were convinced that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and/or the manufacturing equipment and ingredients to make them, he reported, "We were all wrong." David is one of the "good guys," he's honest, fair, trustworthy, thorough, and so on. If he says the material was not there, I'm highly inclined to believe him. Among the things/materials included in his search profile was yellowcake. The only yellowcake found was material U.S. intelligence knew was in Iraq since before the first Gulf War. When checked after that war and after the Second War it had remained in place and was the same amount accounted for by David and his team after the first war.

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