Board Says No to Jail Referendum

None 1 year, 9 months ago

TPo3 serving at the will of the people, and their self-serving interests.

plumblevel 1 year, 9 months ago

Why does the Pilot not show a rendering of the future Public Detention Center instead of this empty lot photo. Why not show the public what they are really getting for their 40 million dollars. As they say a picture speaks a thousand words and this photo says nothing.

The Power of Three have done it again. They have denied the voters of Moore County a public referendum on the November ballot. So arrogant they are that they do not even want to know what the public thinks. When you have a self interest project like this one why let the public get in your way.

GoldenDreams 1 year, 9 months ago

Toda, it is the Power of Three 4 Now. Remember what I told you, this is like planting a seed that is going to sprout when the time is right. Mark my words, pride comes before a fall and then we can pick up the pieces for the good of Moore County.

SoPinesNo1 1 year, 9 months ago

Some things are necessary and have to be done. There has to be a new detention center built. What would happen if it was put to a vote, and the people voted against it? Would the same ones that voted it down volunteer to house the prisoners at their house?

OldSpook 1 year, 9 months ago

Put it to a vote. If the people vote it in, then the "Power of Three" is exonerated of any questionable practices. If the people vote it out...maybe three gentlemen will get their hearing checked. Why fear those who elected you to a position?

None 1 year, 9 months ago

SoPinesNo1 => perhaps you may want to go back and read the research letter I posted from Dr. Sanera with John Lock Foundation. No one would have to house prisoners in their homes.

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

horseylady 1 year, 9 months ago

We the people need to know more about the proposed spending project. As the crime rate is down, per the Pilot, is now the time to build a huge, expensive jail? We need more facts, which the group of 3 (that will not let us vote on this), have been reluctant to provide. A ballot issue should bring more imformation to the public. It is really an outrage that we are not considered intelligent enough to vote on this very important issue.

WilliamGarner 1 year, 9 months ago

To the good people of Moore County, who will have to pay this money back, SAY NO to these three gentlemen. We can take back our County Government. I promise you that if you get out and vote in November and you vote for William S. Garner, I will make a motion that this process be halted until the Tax Payers of Moore County get to have their say. Do not let this process be fast tracked, tell these three commissioners that you want your voice to be heard.

WilliamGarner 1 year, 9 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

NotSoFast 1 year, 9 months ago

"thank you commissioners". We are pleased with the work you guys are doing. We hope you will continue doing a good job.

plumblevel 1 year, 9 months ago

NotSoFast How is almost a 40% per cent increase in expenditures since the Three Amigos (Melton, Caddell, and Picerno) came into office doing a good job? How is it a 50 million dollar Limited Obligation Bond that has been ramrodded down our throats without explaining how it will pay for itself doing a good job? How is ruining an historic town doing a good job? How is putting children in danger at a ballfield, public library, and elementary school doing a good job? Get a reality check and some glasses.Adios.

We have a chance at the polls in November to stop the block voting of the Power of Three. Let us make a choice in November for a fair and balanced representation of the people of Moore County. William Garner I hear you are running. You already have my vote!

I believe you will 'garner', excuse the pun, the votes of both Republicans and Democrats alike. Many are fed up with the current self interest politicians and I hope you will bring some fiscal responsibility with you that these three are lacking. Good Luck!

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

I agree with NOTsofast thank you to the commissioners for doing what is right and for doing your job with class which is a lesson some on this site should learn.

plumblevel 1 year, 9 months ago

Insulting the voters again, Joe? How is putting Moore County into over 200 million in debt in this poor economy have anything to do with class?

NotSoFast 1 year, 9 months ago

This County is growing. the jail is already over crowded. I guess we should stick our heads in the sand a pretend that we will fix the jail problem later. Since bullets are cheaper maybe we could take them out back and shoot them. Once again thank you "the three Amigos" for looking out for the future needs of our county.

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

You know sometimes you hear something or someone tell you something and you just stop and smile and realize that in what they said is truth that is golden. I have been sparring with many of you for some time now, I am still convinced of my position and feel that the truth has been laid out and that it will show in time that the right actions have been done and that defense of the truth by me and others will be shown to be right. Plumblevel, I can be mean and yeah I can give it to you pretty good but look I am a young husband and man who loves my new family with all I have. You and others have said things that enrage my family and friendship instinct to well great levels. Toda the same to you, I feel that the debate could have been better and I feel that you should do better and all of us should do better in that we understand that we all live here in Moore County and that not all of us are evil and yes we will disagree but hey thats life. So I am taking some very good advice I got today and am going to write only the facts that I have and that are out there and will avoid and shun attacks, and other non edifying statements. I hope we will all do the same.

SoPinesNo1 1 year, 9 months ago

There are a lot of mandates. Some are obvious and some not so obvious. There is no Federal or State mandate that says Moore County must build a new detention center. However, there are existing local, state and federal laws that are mandated to be enforced, if they are not going to be enforced then they shouldn't be laws. For example, if someone commits a murder, they are arrested and locked up. The existing jail is beyond capacity. Thus, a new one must be built. I would prefer to not build a new one, but since we are enforcing existing laws and locking up the perpetrators, it has to be done.

Moore County continues to grow. It must be nicer here than most every where in states north of here. Because of this growth, new schools must be built. I don't have children in any school, and won't be contributing to the need for new schools, but my tax dollars must be spent on building new ones.

My point is, each of us must pay taxes that will be used on things we will hopefully never need or use. That's just the way it is. Each commissioner won on election day. I wouldn't have their job. If you don't like their actions, try and vote them out in November. Keep paying your taxes, some of it will be spent on things you use, and some of it won't. Maybe some of mine that I pay will be spent on something you use and I don't.

That's just the way it is. The other option if you can't remove them on election day is to move. There must be lots of places in states north of here available. Maybe it's better, but remember people left there for a reason.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

@SoPinesNo1 => why should anyone move because they object to out of control spending? The same mantra the TEA Party Activists have been chastising Washington over the past year. No one has said the county didn't need addition beds for inmates confined to county lockup. Those who are sentenced in court are transported by prison bus to a NC Department of Corrections unit. The issue evolves around perceived conflicts of interest when elected officials own a company selling their products to the same entity they were elected to represent. Only in Moore County - anywhere else and the local Sheriff would launch an investigation. Current Debt Totals 104,204,149.27. Add 52.5 million and amount that taxpayers were not privy; then add another 50 million on top of that and now we have 206.7 million.

Do you know what that money is being spent for? What it will be used for? How they intend for us to pay off the debt service? How many millions in interest will be paid on 206.7 million? You're not in the minority, because the TPo3 hasn't explained the payout to anyone else in this county. If you feel good about being saddled with all that debt ~ Kudos to you. I don't like it one bit and I intend on being like a thorn in their sides until we as a people have a vote again!

None 1 year, 9 months ago

Joe what a bold statement for a secretary of the Moore County GOP to state publicly: "I can be mean and yeah I can give it to you pretty good but look".

Say what you want and carry silentbob with you as well. [you should inform your buddy].

The numbers came from the county since we pay the bills. You can present the other side as to what those numbers represent. TPo3 has no record for providing explanations ~ only following Washington's lead as the party of NO and big spenders. Question? since you are close to the TEA Party Activists, what do they mean when they say, "take America back"? Back to what? Depression?

None 1 year, 9 months ago

"said things that enrage my family and friendship instinct to well great levels. Toda the same to you" ~ Joe I've never met Nick. I know he is a great father, a pillar in his community, and a contributor to Moore County's development. What has been lost in all these exchanges in my opinion, is Caddell saying this is the way we've always voted. That is one of the many issues. Caddell is so egotistical that he is caught up in his own self loathing persona. By virtue of association with F-I-L and CEO of a company doing business with our county; sitting on the SCC Board lends itself to conflicts of interests and the appearance of unethical behavior.

As a taxpayer, voter, a lifelong resident of Moore County, I personally feel that both commissioners should resign or recuse themselves from voting on any matter where their software or products are used.

I am angry that our Utilities company bought software without taking bids from other vendors. That the more utility infrastructure is set in place, the more Southern Software will benefit from our tax dollars. They deserve to make a living but not at my expense or the taxpayers of this county. No one I've spoken with or anyone who has presented their views or opinions support what is happening in Carthage. Keep in mind I'm not speaking for everyone by no stretch of the imagination. But if you look at an online poll conducted by The Pilot, a margin of 2-1 said we should have the right to vote. Larry knows that the property sales tax failed and he knows any taxpayers who would vote would vote it down. And then how do they pay for projects now underway where they are millions in the red?

I have no respect for anyone who takes away my freedoms and rights. I have a right to vote. All of this will go away if Caddell and F-I-L will allow us our constitutional right to vote!

GodSaves 1 year, 9 months ago

To Joe, I commend you for your honesty and sincerity in your last post. I believe that it takes a lot of courage for someone in your position to admit when they could have handled something in another fashion. Your age has been pointed out many times throughout this site. Quite frankly, I don't know many in your generation or others for that matter that would be so admitting. I want you to know that I appreciate the fact that you have extended yourself and wish to be civil with those of us who disagree. May God bless you and yours:)

hollywood 1 year, 9 months ago

@ plumblevel, "How is putting children in danger at a ballfield, public library, and elementary school doing a good job? Get a reality check and some glasses.Adios."

You are the one that needs GLASSES and A SERIOUS REALITY CHECK! We already have a detention center that has been here in carthage before the schools, before the ballfield, and before the library and how many children have been hurt????? NONE The jail was here before and the new jail will be here later, whether you like it or not!

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

The precedent is there for the bonds to be used without voter approval. I understand the argument but do not agree that it is needed or even appropriate here. A voter referendum should have been brought forward when the capital needs taskforce decided that a jail expansion was necessary. The County Commissioners who were on the board at that time which was between 2006 and 2007 should have decided then to vote on the efficacy of a referendum. Since that did not happen at least 3 million dollars have been spent in prepatory studies and costs to ready the property for the building of the expansion of the detention center. So again a voter referendum is not a bad idea, just a good idea too late. Again lets be reasonable. I urge any of you who feel strongly about this to call Nick or to go to lunch with him or any of the three who voted against the referendum and talk it out. Its hard to take complaints seriously when the proper communication hasn't taken place. PS Plumblevel I wasn't there but your remarks or ideas about using the Grimm property as a park and finding alternative locations for a courthouse and jail I heard was good. But the problem with your logic it seems to me would be that if we took that route it would result in either more money being spent. So if we follow that logic it would mean that the issue with your objections to this entire issues is not about the money because money is going to be spent either way, rather the issue is location only. If I am wrong please clarify your position for me.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

JoeGarrison "The precedent is there for the bonds to be used without voter approval. I understand the argument but do not agree that it is needed or even appropriate here."

LEVY OF LAND TRANSFER TAX => need I say more? Voters expressed their ire with the logic of TPo3. Wait until next year when those who have sit passively by while spending has reached an unprecedented 40% [and] - they receive their tax reassessment. Spin time to make lemons into lemonade and deal with all of those unhappy or malcontent taxpayers swamping the tax office to appeal their property values as seen through those dark glasses of apathy.

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

Toda I don't think you can make the same logic for the limited obligation bonds with the bonds that were approved for education. The county like many counties statewide were asking if the tax on land transfers was acceptable to the voters as a mean for paying for the bonds that were voter approved. You're right the voters said no and they should have. These bonds are limited in terms of their use of the taxing power of the county. The jail, buildings and all are like collateral for the bonds, and the other projects for water system improvements are paid for out of the fund that moore County utility users pay into. Moore County utility users paying for improvements in their system. Makes sense to me. Unless you have an inside track or a killer crystal ball taxes weren't raised the past two years and well the trend of this board is cuts in spending and tax cuts, your conclusion then seems to be unfounded. :) Again I think your comparing apples and oranges.

silentbob 1 year, 9 months ago

Toda you said what I have been saying since this mess started. The issue with the detention center is not that we need a new one but a "percieved conflict of interest". Thats all that needs to be said it is percieved by a handful of people who think to much of themselves and are mad because they did not get their way. Get over it you don't speak for the majority in this county. Toda, Joe doesn't need to bring me with him but I will certainly meet him there.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

hollywood ~ Let me preface my comments by saying there has always been a jail on the adjoining Grimm property. As far back as I can remember. The jail that was their when Ed Cockman was the live-in jailer was comparatively small and resembled an old house with a front porch and all. At first glance, it didn't look like a jail but a rustic old home nestled amongst older homes on Dowd Street.

Fast forward several years and after the old home [jail] was demolished, the first new jail was built that would last for years...such wasn't the case. It has grown in size and capacity.

"The jail was here before and the new jail will be here later, whether you like it or not!" First off we are not discussing a jail but a huge DETENTION CENTER unlike any building we've seen in years since the new courthouse was built ~ the one that resembles a WWII German Pillbox. The Pilot continues to publish Glenn's picture of the proposed site. They haven't used the architectural renderings of the proposed Detention Center to show the enormity of such a huge complex and overwhelming structure.

I worked for the North Carolina Department of Corrections at Cameron Morrison while I was in school. When an inmate is release from custody, if no one is there to give them a ride home or somewhere else, they are taken to the main gate and released – period. The proposed Detention Center or Gold Bar Hilton at full capacity will hold more inmate population than was in custody at Cameron Morrison. There inmates were felons and monitored from gun towers. Several were released in my 4 years of employment to commit heinous crimes – one received the death penalty – John William Rook.

http://www.doc.state.nc.us/DOP/deathpenalty/executed.htm

Apparently Hollywood you haven’t taken the time to see the proposed structure. Perhaps after you have your opinion may be quite different. A jail as opposed to a Detention Center.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

Correction: "The jail that was their" use of wrong possession - there.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

"a killer crystal ball taxes weren't raised the past two years and well the trend of this board is cuts in spending and tax cuts" - wait until next property re-evaluation- Joe. How do they propose to pay for all of this spending and why have county expenditures increased 40% since F-I-L was sworn in to office?

"These bonds are limited in terms of their use of the taxing power of the county." So what was the point in F-I-L asking the bonding company about having a court order to require the Board to raise taxes to pay for bond debt? Is it the same old adage? We didn't raise taxes the court order required us to raise taxes. I would hate to put the Honorable Jim Webb in that position having known him for 25 years.

"Moore County utility users paying for improvements in their system", so where did the Stimulus Funding Come from as part of the 4 million requested by TPo3? Is that fairy money? Are those funds comingled with other funds or end up on the same balance sheet for county debt? 50% of which will have to be paid back over a period of years. It's all taxpayer money: Local - State - Federal and they all have their hands in our wallets.

No one has answered my question about Municipal Utilities Software provided by Southern Software, Inc. Their site says it is compatible with QuickBooks - so why didn't the county use QuickBooks Pro which is a very versatile utility program?

You like I are outsiders looking in and can base our opinions on what is available for public consumption and what we read in the papers. So we can agree to disagree since our motives are polar opposites.

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

Agree to disagree....hey we agreed on something Toda:) Progress;) @Silentbob where are we meeting?:)

None 1 year, 9 months ago

NotSoFast => August 17, 2010 at 5:01 p.m.

"This County is growing." Yes it is with all of those retirees moving here to play golf...We could import some prisoners from other counties and use the new Detention Center as a Federal Lockup. Good revenue producer and a real killer when it comes to property values in Carthage...I bet a donut in a washing machine the tax department will see it much different...when they re-evaluate property in Moore County.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

JoeGarrison => Joe he wants to meet with me to sign my petition. I really didn't have the heart to break the news to him. Since he is following on your coat tails, maybe you could break the new to him?

None 1 year, 9 months ago

CORRECTION: break the news to him.

silentbob 1 year, 9 months ago

Toda what you are talking about happens all over the state. When an inmate does his time they are released. The difference is most inmates are on some type of probation or parole and they are released into their custody and the inmate should have a home address and some kind of plan. The new detention center is for housing pre trial inmates. If you new as much about the system as you say then I would not have to tell you that. Once an inmate is sentenced then they are transported to the DOC or picked up by the DOC bus. If the detainee is not sentenced to active time in the court house and their case has been disposed of then they are released from the jail. So the chance of a murderer or a serious felon being released for the new detention center is very slim. That blog is just another attempt by you to put your spin on it by trying to convince someone that you know more than you really do.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

silentbob => I yeild to you wise one!

Not when they max out their sentence through good time and/or gaintime. They don't have a parol officer to pick them up at a gate! If they were on probation they wouldn't be locked up to start with - oh wise one.

Have you ever been inside of a court room? Defendants can - have - will be confined to a local dentention center like the Gold Bar Hilton. But you know that Mr. LE.

BTW: "That blog is just another attempt by you" I didn't initiate this BLOG - I just posted a thread to this blog.

Have you ever considered addressing issues on blogs as opposed to attacking me on every post? You don't know me or anything about me. Just try to stick to the issues if you can....

silentbob 1 year, 9 months ago

It is obvious that things have changed since your time at Morrison. The new structured sentencing that applies now is the reason most that are released have a probation or parole officer, it is uncommon now to see an inmate max out. Inmates can get confined to a local detention facility for lesser crimes. The ones that are considered a danger to the public are not after their cases are heard. I have spent many days in the court room and I will continue to do that for a few more years when I retire. Toda I do address the issues it just seems that my opinion and yours are a little different and I come on here to point that out. By the way Toda I know you well and you know me we have walked in the same places in the past. I have no personal issue with you I think you are a good fellow, I just have a different view. I hope your wife is doing better.

silentbob 1 year, 9 months ago

One more thing Toda. Under structured sentencing there is no such thing as good time and or gain time. That is under the old fair sentencing act.

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

On a lighter note is anyone tired of hearing about Brett Favre?:)

None 1 year, 9 months ago

silentbob => I beg to differ, "If the inmate was sentenced under the Fair Sentencing Act, he or she will be able to reduce the amount of time they spend in prison by working or participating in certain programs. If an inmate is working or assigned to a program, he or she will receive what is called gain time."

Here's a link for your convienance: http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398076

http://www.doc.state.nc.us/parole/history.htm

Joe ~ hopefully after this season he will FINALLY retire!!!

None 1 year, 9 months ago

"Toda I know you well and you know me we have walked in the same places in the past." Who could not have guess it! Where could we have walked in the same places in the past? Just a little hint? No harm - no foul.

As far as knowing me ~ it's all a matter of who you ask. I have overcome my violent temper through years of meditation. Well - almost....I still like to box and spar. You wasn't one of my classmates I used to beat up on the play ground at Vass Lakeview back in the 60's?

buddysmith 1 year, 9 months ago

I say again-50 million dollars for a jail????

Bflat 1 year, 9 months ago

That DC is huge. Before saying we need it, go take a look at that architectural drawing to see the proposed size. I do not think we need to spend $40million and on a facility of this size at that location. I don't think opponents are saying there is no need for an expanded DC but that it doesn't need to be in the proposed location and certainly not of the size. This building can be expanded to beyond 600 beds. And, for those that say the jail has always been in Carthage....sure, but not one that is going to be over 600 beds !!!!

plumblevel 1 year, 9 months ago

The rendering of the proposed Public Safety Complex was shown this evening on CAROLINA 14 NEWS. It is huge!! I believe it is 110,000 sq ft or two football fields long.

stephen 1 year, 9 months ago

Remove the non-violent drug offenders from jail & there will be plenty of room for people who commit crimes against other people.

silentbob 1 year, 9 months ago

Toda some of the same ground we walked was not in school it has been in our adult lives. In reference to the good or gain time let me explain again. In order for an inmate to earn good or gain time he would have been sentenced under the old fair sentencing act. This is the prison policy that was put in to place during the first James Hunt administration. In the current law of structured sentencing there is no good time or gaine time. The inmate is given a minumum and a maximum, he will at least do the minimum and he will be on probation or parole through his max date. Toda it is like I said its not personal but I can assure you that I would not have been beat up by anyone on the play ground.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

Here you go silentbob ~ again: " he would have been sentenced under the old fair sentencing act." This IS the Structured Sentencing Act. Apparently you are obviously mis-interpeting what is written. This is taken from the inmates handbook. The NCDoC has always and still has in place good time and gaintime for offenders. It has never changed only the structure of the language used for appropriate bills.

If the inmate was sentenced under the Structured Sentencing Act, he or she will receive what is called earned time when they are assigned to a job or a full-time program. If an inmate is assigned to a job or a full-time program, earned time can help reduce their sentence down from the maximum release date to the minimum release date. An inmate cannot reduce his or her sentence below the minimum release date for their sentence that the judge gave them.

If the inmate was sentenced under the Fair Sentencing Act, he or she will be able to reduce the amount of time they spend in prison by working or participating in certain programs. If an inmate is working or assigned to a program, he or she will receive what is called gain time.

Different amounts are awarded based on the type of job or program the offender is assigned to. Inmates sentenced under the "Fair Sentencing Act" are also awarded good time. This means that the inmate receives one-day good time credit for good behavior for each day served in prison.

For example, a person sentenced to 12 months would receive a total of six months good time credit as soon as they are received in prison, and therefore, would have to serve only six months in prison. Good time can be taken away due to disciplinary action.

Inmates sentenced under the Fair or Structured Sentencing Act may also be awarded what is called merit time. If inmates work more than 40 hours a week, work in bad weather or work under emergency conditions, the Division of Prisons may award additional time credits.

For inmates sentenced under the Fair or Structured Sentencing Act, projected release dates are subject to change if inmates are removed from a job or program assignment for any reason such as transfer, disciplinary, or completion of a program.

This information pretty well covers it...If our paths have crossed a picture on your profile, a name or any identifying information may lend credence to your identifying with me as knowing me well (?). As far as I'm concerned you're just another annoymous individual posting threads on a blog - one without an identity.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

plumblevel => I'm curious why The Pilot has avoided publishing the architectual renderings of the proposed detention center so that taxpayers can see what their money is going to pay for once it is completed? Glen Sides is an outstanding photographer ~ but an empty lot?

They've published other color images in the past. So what's up with avoiding publishing the images? Is there some sort of political bias at work here? Inquiring minds want to know?

silentbob 1 year, 9 months ago

Toda you are right here we go again. IF you read my post I think that is exactly what I said. The inmate will at least do their minimum under structured sentencing. I don't have to write 4 or 5 paragraphs so I can try and convince people I am smarter than I really am. I also don't need to worry about the writing in the DOC handbook you and I both know what you meant about good time/ gain time and you was not referring to it under the current structured sentencing law.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

OK ~ silentbob ~ you win! "In order for an inmate to earn good or gain time he would have been sentenced under the old fair sentencing act. This is the prison policy that was put in to place during the first James Hunt administration."

plumblevel 1 year, 9 months ago

Toda To see the architectural rendering of the Public Safety building is shocking. Not sure what the political bias here is other than to help Caddell and Picerno get their project passed without shocking people. Once you have seen the rendering you will have great concerns about the cost and wonder why we need something so grand. It simply helps Caddell and Picerno when there are no renderings printed in the paper so as not to bring much attention to it.

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

There is nothing constitutionally inappropriate about the way the jail is being funded. There is nothing inappropriate about the software in the jail or elswhere and there is nothing wrong with the way the board has acted so far. Toda isn't it true that you contacted the state attorney generals office and asked for an investigation into the boards activities and that your request was denied forlack of evidence? Again disagreeing with the boards decision is one thing but meaness and such should be avoided.

silentbob 1 year, 9 months ago

Toda we both win. We are adults we can agree to disagree. Joe you should know by now that it doesn't matter what you say they are going to disagree. We both know that if there was any wrong doing the state BOE, the SBI or someone from the Attorney General's office would have already been down here investigating it.

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

True that, Silentbob, but hey I am praying that they will see the light:)

Bflat 1 year, 9 months ago

The typical way to take heat off of the real issues is to try to redirect it into something else such as making continual attacks on a person that presents facts, apologizing and then going right back to doing the same thing amounts to being mean, in my opinion. That isn't agreeing to disagree.

Let's deal with the real issues: cost, size and location of the DC. Cost is around $40million, the size is huge, and the location is wrong in the center of downtown Carthage. We may need to expand the jail a little but not at $40 million. There has to be a better alternative to the location and costs. Not one of the commissioners has said why we need a $40 million DC right now. Expand a little, yes. Most of us agree to that but not at the proposed location if it's going to be 2 football fields long and 3 or 4 stories tall. The taxpayers are going to be saddled with this huge debt for many years and the worst of the down economy has not yet been experienced. The news media has not told of everything that is yet to come.

silentbob 1 year, 9 months ago

Bflat I will respect your opinion but it really don't matter to me what your opinion is. I agree with the first part of your blog because that is exactly what they have been doing, redirecting the issue of the new jail into other issues. The cost, the size and the location are issues to be discussed not whether the commisoners have a hidden agenda and are going to make alot of money on the new jail and that is the reason they voted for it. In my blog you must have seen something I didn't because I did not apologize to Toda, I still have a difference of opinion with him on this and many issues and that difference will most likely continue but I still have respect for him and his ideas.

boomer 1 year, 9 months ago

Toda, You would have my vote if you run for office.I've read all your comments & everyone else's & I would feel great having you as one of our county commissioners.You would be standing up for all of us & we wouldn't have to beg for a chance to vote on an issue like this. Thanks for your knowledgeable posts.I enjoy every one!

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

BFlat the cost is not known yet the bids will have to come in first so the figure of 40 million is an estimate not a definitive number. With cost of construction down and so forth the bids hpefully will come under that figure. But again the figure you give should be given as a estimate not a set in stone amount. The limited bond issue was in this years budget and no tax increase occured nor instead you saw the tax rate maintain the rate that was set last year when the board voted to cut taxes. And to correct something that was posted about the county increasing expenditures by 40%, That figure is wrong, the county reduced expenditures by 15% this budget year and recently charged the county manager to make further reductions. So again the numbers don't add up for that figure. Again lets understand that issues like location, referendum, and money are relevant issues, but personal attacks and innuendos and accusations ar enot needed if the facts are on your side.

greentara13 1 year, 9 months ago

I understand we need a new jail. (Please call it a jail, detention sounds like what you get in high school for chewing gum in class..... I hope we 'detain' some criminals for a good long time!) I fail to understand the location of the detention center. Carthage has a neat little downtown, and that is about all it has. So why mess up the one good thing you have? I also fail to understand why the public (and ahem voters!) don't get to participate in such a momentous decision.

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

Did the voters participate in the decisions of the budget? No Did the voters vote in referendum when the chairman was selected? No Do the voters vote referendum on approving grants, or other decisions within the county government? No. The county government makes a majority of its decisions without referendum due to the nature of the representative republic form of government we have in place. If the bonds being used were using the taxing power of the county to finance the debt service on the bonds then yes the voters would get to vote via referendum on the issue because the taxes could be raised to pay for the debt service. The limited obligation bonds are using the value of the property and the jail itself as collateral for the bonds, and the other expenditures are being paid out of funds that are contributed into by individuals whom they apply to such as the county utility fund that is a fund made up of user fees of those individuals who use Moore County utilities, not the general fund which all property owners pay into. So again a representative republic is what we are as a nation,state, and county. We do not vote or legislate via referendum, except for instances where the law states that a referendum must be called to settle a matter. There is no such requirement for the use of limited obligation bonds and there is no precedent that I know of where the building of capital needs were put to a vote via referendum. If anybody has such a case please educate me. So in conclusion the matter at hand and the way it is being handled is being done in accordance with the laws and statutes of this state and are following precedent which is followed by all government entities.

GodSaves 1 year, 9 months ago

"If the bonds being used were using the taxing power of the county to finance the debt service on the bonds then yes the voters would get to vote via referendum on the issue because the taxes could be raised to pay for the debt service."

@ Joe - I am a little confused. Mr. Picerno was quoted at a hearing saying that "if the jail doesn't pay for itself it could result in court ordered taxes." With that being said the people's voices should be heard then. Can I safely assume that the Commissioners have an unrevealed plan on how this huge facility will pay for itself therefore they are feeling that we don't need to be heard? If so should I be thinking that the plan is a little "shakey" considering that something prompted Mr. Picerno to make such a statement?

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

The facility hopefully will come in under on the bid estimate of 40 million and the property itself will serve as collateral as the debt service on the bonds. Again I have not seen the quote you are referring to. If you could direct me to the story or the minutes where you found the quote so I can get the context of the quote that would be wonderful. Hope you are doing well. I urge you also to call Nick personally if you need any clarification of his position. (910) 691-1150.

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

Also I would like to clarify something. Since Nick Picerno has come onto the Board of the Commissioners, the county government has decreased taxes or left them neutral, in the previous and current budget year respectively. The Board has cut government expenditures by 15% in this current year and has also made progress in securing our water security for this and thenext generation. The charge that this board or at least three of its members are just looking to spend money is not supported by the record over the last two years. These are actions that in my opinion establish the trend of good conservative government that governs for all and not the few.

GodSaves 1 year, 9 months ago

Hey Joe! Searching for it. The article was in the Pilot I would say about 2 months ago give or take. First reference that I found to that statement being made was on June 25. I'll keep searching. There is a lot of articles to go through!!! Hey Pilot can you help us out???!!! LOL!!!!

I can tell you are doing well and am truly glad to know it!!!! Be blessed ;)

plumblevel 1 year, 9 months ago

Why has Toda been censored by the Pilot? Why is he not allowed to make any comments?

Joe, I would like to clarify when you write the State Attorney General you do not usually hear back in writing. If you do hear something they usually call. Since Toda wrote the letter they would only answer him not the County Commissioners he apparently complained about. I am sure there has been no investigation clearing Nick Picerno. Since Toda made the complaint he would hear first. So, I am sure no one has heard of any findings from Roy Coopers office as of yet. If one commissioner hears something then the other four would would also hear. Joe, you need to check your facts on that one. Ask Laura Williams, Clerk for the MC Board of Commissioners, she would know.

plumblevel 1 year, 9 months ago

Joe

Why is it none ot the other commissioners have a spokesman blogging 24/7 to defend them? Why is it your father in law is so concerned?

"nothing constitutionally inapproriate about the way the jail is being funded" No, nothing in the constitution but the voters did request a referendum and were denied. I find a constant 3-2 block vote by the same three commissioners for the last year and a half tyrannical.

"nothing inappropriate about the software in the jail" It is never been bid out. Contracts are never posted in the Old Courthouse for the public to see as required by law.In 2007 Software was installed in the sheriff's department by Caddell without contract and paid retroactive.

"meaness should be avoided" I find it "mean" to put a 600 to 840 bed prison across the street from an elementary school, public library, childrens ball field, and a church. I find it mean to ruin an historic town and lower property values. Now I call that mean.

"praying that they all see the light" Well, Joe, I guess your prayers are going unanswered.

"the limited obligation bond issue is in this years budget and no tax increase" What are you talking about? The limited bond issue is going before the Local Gov Commission in Raleigh for approval the first Tuesday in September. Get your facts straight.

"personal attacks and innuendos and accusations are not needed if facts are on your side" Well, Joe, I guess the facts have not been on your side since you have called those that oppose your opinion every name in the book. You have accused them of being liars, voters pond scum was it ?, etc. Your name calling list is very long. Missing some facts, Joe?

"Regarding the voters not getting to vote" and all your excuses for it. This is the largest bond in the history of Moore County. The voters requested a referendum and were denied.This limited obligation bond will hold MC accountable for 50 million dollars. And, if it does not pay for itself it will ruin the borrowing rate of Moore County.

B-flat and God Saves thanks for bringing some "light" to this page.B-flat you could not have summed it up better. God Saves that was a perfect description "shakey".Thank you both.

plumblevel 1 year, 9 months ago

Greentara13 I agree with you too."Why mess it up?"

Boomer I also like all of Toda's posts. Do not understand why the Pilot is not letting him on.

GodSaves 1 year, 9 months ago

@ plumblevel

Do you happen to remember what article it was where Mr. Picerno stated that if the jail doesn't pay for itself that it could result in court ordered taxes? I believe it was an article in reference to a meeting. I can't seem to find it and quite frankly getting tired of looking. It is almost as if it has disappeared. Any help would be appreciated. Be blessed :)

@ Toda- I don't see why you would be censored and not able to make any comments. If that is the case then that is just wrong......you have not acted any differently than others that are still posting. Be blessed:)

None 1 year, 9 months ago

Selective memory Joe Garrison => http://www.thepilot.com/news/2010/jun...

The minutes were recorded and are on record for you and anyone else to see. Nick Picerno asked the bonding consultant if the [county] couldn't pay the debt service, what would need to be done. The bonding consultant told him they would need a court order to raisetaxes - he turned to Larry Caddell and said, and I quote, "we'll need a court order". It's a matter of public record.

Your claim of a 15% reduction is ludicroust: I'm not doing the math for you but if your claim that my contention about a 40% increase is false, then go to the county website => Moore County Financial Summaries => Financial Summaries for years. When I took college Business Math, and economics esculation of expenditures exceed revenue for any given period, that is an increase. From the time Picerno was seated as a commissioner, those numbers have increased ~ not deceased. To the tune of 40%. Look it up!

As far as your statement about the North Carolina Attorney Generals Office is true ~ I have contacted them more than once as a matter-of-fact - today as well. They have not shared their intentions or conclusions. Is there something you're not sharing that we all would like to be privy? Or more defending Nick and Larry. Or more of the same old lip service for Larry, Nick and Jimmie?

You can soapbox all you want and opinions are not going to sway. This county is 206.2 million in debt or soon will be once the Limited Liability Bonds with a high interest rate are approved ~ the expenditure no one was allowed to vote on like American Citizens.

You nor no one else has answered my single pressing question? Did the County of Moore let out for bids, the Municipal Financial Software, as opposed to using QuickBooks Pro? Southern Software states on their web site that their software is compatible with QuickBooks. A bit of insider leverage so to speak? Is the use of Southern Software for Utilities the driving force behind all of the water service infrastucture that was badly needed in Pinehurst 5 years ago? Who will benefit from expanding water utilities financially? More software sales perhaps?

Perhaps Moore County should contract with Tony Wilder of Harnett County to build the Detention Center since they build a simular structure for less than 22 million ~ remember seeing the email from Mr. Wilder? If not I'll re-post for you and other readers!

The Pilot should take the time and effort to interview Mr. Wilder and get some insider information on how the MCBC should be spending our money.

plumblevel 1 year, 9 months ago

God Saves

Picerno said at the June Moore County Board of Commissioners meeting that if the revenue bonds failed to pay for themselves it would be "court ordered taxes". Laura Williams, Clerk of the MC Board of Commissioners, can e-mail you a copy of the meeting notes.So far, the commissioners have not explained how these revenue bonds will pay for themselves.

GodSaves 1 year, 9 months ago

AHHHHHHHH Toda and plumblevel I thank you, thank you, and once again thank you!!!!!! I have gone crossed eyed trying to find the particular article that I was talking about. As I have said before it seems to have disappeared. Based on past posts in the comment section I believe that it was at the June 21, 2010 meeting. Bless you both!!!!

@Joe - Hope this helps. Be blessed:)

None 1 year, 9 months ago

From the Second paragraph words used to characterize our form of government come from the Constitution: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by the Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".

Which leads us to popular sovereignty, or peoples rule: In the words of President Abraham Lincoln, "a government of the people, by the people, and for the people." True statements that represent the truths of our nation.

JoeGarrison 1 year, 9 months ago

Toda your story link had nothing in there whatsoever about a quote to raise taxes via court order. Because the bonds are limited in their scope, the courts cannot, let me say again cannot order the county to raise taxes on limited obligation bonds, if the county defaults on them. The only way a court can order the county to raise the necessary revenue to pay for bonds is if general obligation bonds are used, bonds that are using the taxing power of the county as collateral on the bonds instead of the land or buildings like the limited bonds will do. The worst case scenario is if the county is unable to fulfill their limited obligation bonds the bank will close on the land and the buildings. It has never been said that the limited obligation bonds will result in court ordered taxes. So again using misquotes, mistatements and distortions are not going to wash for you guys. I urge anyone to give me the volume and page number of the minutes and the audio bite where the "quote" is. Again get the facts right or don't comment on anything at all.

None 1 year, 9 months ago

I was in attendance ~ you can look it up! The minutes of the June meeting unless TPo3 re-recorded. Everyone heard Nick's comment to Caddell!

Board Says No to Jail Referendum

More like this story

Comments

May events