Jail Bonds Are Nothing Unusual
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A bond is a debt, according to any dictionary. That's one of multiple definitions, including a fetter, an obligation and a reference to the quality of paper.
So take your pick of definitions when it comes to bonds issued by the county, whether for education, a jail or utilities.
Issuance of $50 million in limited obligation bonds is not as rare as critics of a recent action by a majority of the Moore County Board of Commissioners would have us believe.
The board voted 3-2 to issue the bonds with $40 million designated for the public safety complex, including an enlarged jail and facilities for the sheriff's department, emergency medical services, 911 emergency communication system and related agencies. The remaining $10 million will be directed toward major capital improvements in county utilities serving the Pinehurst system.
Critics offered a series of complaints about the split decision. They argued that the new building is too large, too expensive and in the wrong location. The also complained that the bonds were being issued without a vote of the people and that the debt would further burden taxpayers.
Here's some background on that latter issue:
Unlike general obligation bonds, limited obligation bonds do not require a referendum. Limited obligation bonds are also known as revenue bonds.
General obligation bonds are usually issued for major capital projects in the public schools. In Moore County, recent referendums have also included capital improvements at Sandhills Community College. Historically, Moore County voters approve such measures by comfortable margins.
As of June 30, Moore County had a bonded indebtedness of $88.275 million, a figure that includes $69.5 million approved by voters in a 2007 referendum for capital projects for public schools and college.
Interim County Finance Director Caroline Xiong says the $88 million-plus total covers all of the county's outstanding debts, not just those issued for education purposes.
Xiong says the county regularly monitors the financial picture and frequently reissues bonds when interest rates change in a direction beneficial to the county. For example, the education bonds approved in 1998 by the voters and now paid off were reissued a couple of times to take advantage of lower interest rates.
The county's bond rating remains high - A1 by Moody's and A-plus by Standard and Poor's. However, Xiong says the county will reapply for ratings with issuance of the $50 million in bonds.
The bond rating, which was upped shortly after voters approved the 2007 bond issue, is important because it reflects a local government's ability to support debt. The benefit can mean more enthusiastic responses from lenders and lower interest rates.
But just how often have Moore County voters approved bonds for any purpose other than education? Rarely.
Voters approved a $150,000 bond issue in 1921 to build the historic courthouse in Carthage. But recent history shows few such ballot box initiatives.
The Courts Facility, occupied in the late 1970s, was erected through an unusual financing initiative involving establishment of a nonprofit corporation that assumed responsibility for the debt on the county's behalf.
Since then, the county has built several new structures without issuance of general obligation bonds. Among them are the Agriculture Center and the Health Center in the Moore County Office Park. The county later erected a pre-engineered building across the street for the elections board.
Mike Griffin, who was county finance officer at the time, recalls that the county borrowed money in 2000 to acquire the Carriage Oaks complex, primarily for use by the Department of Social Services. Griffin, now finance officer for the Moore County Schools, says the transaction involved a simple loan from a bank, not bonds.
The existing jail was enlarged before the Carriage Oaks acquisition at a cost of $4.7 million. Griffin says the county issued Certificates of Participation to cover the cost of enlarging and renovating the jail at that time.
'Straight-Out Loan'
Certificates of Participation, usually referred to as COPs, differ little from limited obligation bonds in that they represent a loan directly from a bank.
"They're just a straight-out loan, just like a loan on your house," Griffin says.
Griffin adds that such loans as COPs and limited obligation bonds may attract higher interest rates than general obligation bonds, but there are advantages that make up the difference.
He says these "straight-out" loans involve considerably less legal and financial red tape and thus are far less costly to administer than GO bonds.
A referendum is not red tape, but administration of a referendum entails plenty of red tape. It's too late to add a local referendum to the November ballot, when the cost would be little more than the minimum fee to pay for the coding to program the electronic equipment, says Elections Director Glenda Clendenin.
At this point, the county would have to call a special election for a referendum or wait until next year when municipal elections are held. A separate special election could cost as much as $40,000, in contrast to the $300 or $400 fee for the additional coding if the measure were added to a general or primary election ballot.
In opting for nonreferendum bonds, county officials are trying to take advantage of lower interest rates while the economy remains sluggish. From this standpoint, they fear that a delay would add to the risk of higher interest rates and the possibility of less competitive bids
Even school construction projects are not always funded through GO bonds.
In recent years, the county commissioners have approved at least two projects through direct loans from a bank. That's how both West Pine and New Century middle schools were built.
Little Difference in End
What is the difference between limited liability and general obligation bonds, other than the referendum question?
When it comes to paying off the debt, very little. The taxpayers will foot the bill in either case.
In less technical language, one might say that general obligation bonds use the county tax base as collateral. That means that the county can be forced to raise the tax rate to pay off the debt.
As for other types of loans, the county plays a role similar to that of any other borrower, including homeowners. If the homeowner reneges on mortgage payments, the bank can foreclose and take the property.
But what would the bank do with a jail, a school or an agriculture center? In the unlikely event this would happen, the bank would probably simply assume ownership of the property and lease it back to the delinquent borrower.
Moore County, with its relative affluence and high bond rating, usually makes an attractive client for lending establishments.
However, a more important factor in assuming such an obligation is the North Carolina Local Government Commission, a nine-member bastion of financial conservatism housed within the state treasurer's office. The state treasurer chairs the commission, which must approve any major loan before a local government incurs bonded indebtedness.
Further, if a local government becomes too sloppy at bookkeeping, the commission has statutory authority to impound the books and simply take over the financial operations of the recalcitrant county or municipality.
The commission's power is -sufficiently intimidating to encourage most local government officials to knuckle under.
Options are few when it comes to financing local government capital projects. An alternative might be a lease-to-buy contract with the county paying rent long-term to private enterprise. That's another story.
Contact Florence Gilkeson by e-mail at florence@thepilot.com.
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Comments
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
The story behind the story is that Moore County Commissioners Caddell and Picerno did not want to risk a vote where the voters of Moore County could decide not to vote for their self interest project. This decision could have been on the ballot for only $300 to $400 in our last primary. Now, if it only cost $40,000 to stop $40 million being spent in this economy it is worth it. Send the $40,000 bill to the 'Power of Three' Melton, Caddell and Picerno for the referendum since they have stopped us from voicing our opinion and let us vote.
Then let us go back to the table. I know there is a need for a new jail and public safety offices but not this size, location, or cost. Let us use General Obligation bonds instead at a lower rate. Let us not throw this back on the taxpayer with higher property reevaluations and property taxes.
If they plan to use a revenue bond, then it must pay for itself. Not once have the Power of Three explained to the public how they plan to make this project pay for itself. Is it that they do not want to reveal that it will be a giant 'Federal Prison'? Or do they know it will fail to pay for itself? Is that why they cannot present a sound financial plan to the taxpayers of Moore County since "they are footing the bill"? Don't we deserve an explanation?
Why are we not privy to the financial plan that they must present to the Local Government Commission for approval. You would think they would present this plan to us first. In the meantime, Caddell, Picerno, and Melton continue to insult the intelligence of Moore County voters as they lead us down a blind alley for a self serving project. I say it again, "Let us Vote"!!!!!
horseylady 2 years, 9 months ago
Florence Gilkerson's well written article indicates that she has studied the issue and tried to present the facts as she sees them. I commend her. She presents several important issues well, but does not really address other fundamental issues. I still do not see an answer the the question of how we are going to pay for this revenue bond. Well, actually, she does say that the taxpayer will foot the bill in either case. I submit that we as taxpayers should be allowed to vote on such a large expenditure. The commissioners should be aware of timing issues for ballot submissions, and they have a responsibility to inform the public of their intended actions. A revenue bond should by definition produce revenue. I would appreciate some transparency on how the commissioners expect to have a jail produce revenue. It is good that our county has a high bond rating, but that does not mean that we have to spend irresponsibly. The issue is not our rating, but how we intend to spend it. The Pilot's headlines recently reported a lower crime rate, so why do we need a hugh jail? We do not deny that more jail space may be needed, but we need to evaluate the location, size and loan cost more carefully.
None 2 years, 9 months ago
Bonds payable
Series 03 8,700,000.00 Series 08 38,500,000.00 Series 2009A 28,865,000.00 Series 2009B Refunding Bond 12,210,000.00 Subtotal 88,275,000.00
Jail C.O.P.'s 0.00
Capital lease 75,812.41
Other obligations
County Totals 104,204,149.27
I'm not sure where Florence found her numbers, but it sure looks like 104.2 million to me.
"limited obligation bonds may attract higher interest rates than general obligation bonds" The underlying question remains, why can't the people who will be paying for all of this vote? Just like the last School Bond referendum ~ failed! What on earth does Moore County need with so much real estate anyway. TPo3 need to understand that it is no longer business as usual in Moore County. Their actions or inactions are now under the microscope. If they decide not to let the people of Moore County vote on spending another 100 million dollars ~ let them pay for out of their own pockets!
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
Toda The past school bond failing is exactly why the Power of Three do not want to put their self interest project at risk. Afterall, this way the taxpayers will foot the bill and are given no choice in the matter.
Looks like 104.2 million to me too. Then add 50 million for this proposed limited obligation bond and you are at 154.2 million of debt. The problem is you must then add court house improvement cost and a government complex center. Now we are getting in deep at least over 200 million. So, I say let us vote on it.
GRITS 2 years, 9 months ago
Why are the commissioners afraid to know what the voters really think?
horseylady 2 years, 9 months ago
Wow to toda on just getting the facts. Are you an investigative reporter? Do you disclose your sources? We all would like to know the exact figures, and it seems you really did do the homework. I applaud you, and and ask Ms Gilkerson if she agrees with your facts. Transparency in government is so important, and checking the validity of sources is critical. What is really going on with this building project?
right2vote 2 years, 9 months ago
nice to see that people care about the money being spent and that we should have had the right2vote on such a huge expenditure. however, i don't want anyone including ms. gilkerson to dismiss those people that started all the "complaining" and their initial concern - which is the location of a large jail across from the ballfield, school and library. if these 5 commissioners wanted to do something really great for the community and use that 1.5 million dollar scrap of land then why not put up a youth center and attach your names to something laudable. put the safety center aka jail where it belongs at the other/outer end of town.
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
Since 1921 there has not been a bond issue this large in Moore County to vote on and that alone makes it an important issue. Why would the residents of Moore County not get a say in the matter? Picerno said he understood why his constituents were feeling this project was being "ramrodded down their throats". So, why is it being ramrodded? Let us vote.
silentbob 2 years, 9 months ago
Plumblevel I said earlier that I would have liked for this issue to have went to public vote but it did not so it is over. It you want to fight it then you and your supporters pay the 40,000 dollars don't send it to anyone else. This is your battle you use your resources. Toda just more smoke and mirrors.
right2vote 2 years, 9 months ago
why is it not possible to have intelligent conversations? what is smoke and mirrors about what toda wrote - he was merely stating the facts about the debt this county is in to date. silentbob - do just that and keep silent....unless you have factual, insightful and useful commentary. otherwise, you are nothing but "hot air".
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
silentbob "At this point, the county would have to call a special election for a referendum or wait until next year when municipal elections are held. A separate special election held could cost $40,000, in contrast to the $300 or $400 fee for the additional coding if the measure were added to a general or primary election ballot."
It is not too late. If the voters decide to stop this initiative on a referendum we could regroup.Caddell's vision is a bad one. We could then scale down on the size of the Detention Center and truly make a Detention Center for Moore County only (not a 'Federal Prison' open to other states). Caddell wants to generate income for Moore County through the criminal business which also benefits his sales with Southern Software. Unfortunately, the more prisoners they import they will also be released into Moore County. Let us just take on our own problems in Moore not those of other counties and states.
Cut back on the size of the DC and put it outside of town with a new courthouse. Put the Government Complex Center on the Grimm land.Wouldn't that be logical? I know it is not Caddells vision. His vision is to place such a monstrosity next to a Public Library, elementary school, and childrens ballfield. I counted 55 cars parked at the ballfield week before last. How sad for our children to put them in harms way. Yes. Let us vote and rethink this plan. It is not too late and $40,000 is not too much to spend.
bigD 2 years, 9 months ago
Toda- What is the County's income relative to all this debt? Does the new debt make our county insolvent? Will we have to raise tax rates to pay for the debt? Is it a big advantage to finance now while we are in this low rate environment?
silentbob 2 years, 9 months ago
Plumblevel all you have talked about for months is how Caddell and Nick are violating some rules and trying to line their own pockets and you have done all this without any prove. I also remember you saying all you wanted was your voice back and the problem you have with the new detention center is that it is close to your house. I have also read all your post about the money the detention center is going to cost and now you want to cost the county another 40,000. Right2vote I will talk all I want too and if my opinion is that Toda's information was somke and mirrors, so be it because I am man enough to say it. Just because you want to jump on the band wagon doesn't mean I do. The reason it is impossible to have an intelligent conversattion on here is because of people like you. All of that information that he put in his blog what did it have to do with the issue. The county is going to be in some debt "genius".
None 2 years, 9 months ago
Silentbob ~ "Toda's information was somke and mirrors" that is so funny when the information is available to you or any other citizen who asks. The somke [smoke] and mirrors you are referring to may be just that since the information came directly from the Moore County Clerk to the Board. Send me your email address and I'll gladly send you the Excel Spreadsheet. Yep you summed it up: "impossible to have an intelligent conversattion [conversation] on here". Especially when talking heads spout off about something they know absolutely nothing about!
None 2 years, 9 months ago
bigD ~ good questions. I would like to refer you back to the June MCBoC meeting. Nick Picerno asked the bonding company representative a question regarding the county's ability to pay the debt obligations, what course of action would be required? The answer was to have a Judge issue a court order directing them to raise taxes to meet their debt obligations. Picerno remarked that we may need a court order.
Keep in mind that next year is a non-election year and time for another property re-evaluation. According to the State Appeals Board for challenging local property re-evaluations, unless your property is appraised for more than 30%, the commission will not hear your motion. I know firsthand as a result of my appeal.
In answer to your question about the solvency of Moore County, I can say that since Picerno was elected county expenditures have increased by 40%...much different than his platform of curbing government spending.
What's wrong with savings and planning for the future? It seems that governments try to stay in the red as opposed to future spending accounts. We are paying millions in interest...I think of county government as a business: plan and spend as opposed to spending and figuring out where the money is coming from in a week economy.
I expect that recovery will take several years and interest rates will remain low to entice investments in labor and sales ~ domestic and abroad as well. I would expect interest rates to remain low for at least a couple more years. The bond market for Muni’s is still stable and a good investment for any diversified portfolio. No one is expecting that to change anytime soon.
None 2 years, 9 months ago
Correction: "coming from in a week economy." should have spelled weak ~ weak economy.
silentbob 2 years, 9 months ago
Toda I am not going to have a conversation with you about intelligents. I have seen you make numerous comments about thing it was obvious you knew nothing about. What I was referring to when I said smoke and mirrors was the same old political trick you have been pulling since this converstation was started months ago. I know where you got the information I have seen it myself. How is the petition drive going? I want to see how well you will do in the public eye and not behind a computer. I have noticed one thing that will certainly hurt you. It appears to me that you have a problem when people call you out on something, that leads to you coming back at them with smart comments. In the public eye trying to get votes that is not a good trait. It doesn't bother me because you lost my vote (nothing personal) months ago and anyone else that I have talked to.
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
Silentbob $40,000 is nothing to spend if we can get the opportunity to rethink a poorly thought out plan. The Commissioners threw away $390,000 on architectural plans for the Government Complex Center since they did not check to see if the land was viable first.We now own plans for $390k for a building that will not probably fit wherever they decide to build later. What is $40,000 when they (Lea was not in agreement/Picerno not in office) paid 1.5 million for the Grimm property worth $700,000? Since they have been throwing the taxpayers money away like it was play money what is $40,000? It could have been a $300 expense if it had been put on the November ballot in time.
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
silentbob The fact that Caddell and Picerno refuse to recuse themselves from voting on issues where they have conflict of interest is the proof of lack of integrity and morals.
silentbob 2 years, 9 months ago
I disagreed with the purchase of the Grimm property and its good to know that you don't have a problem with the county spending another 40,000 dollars just because you don't want the new jail close to your house. What is so poorly thought out about the plan. In some of you previous post you say that we need a new detention center so what makes your plan any better thought out than the one we have now. All you want is for the plan to be changed so the jail is not close to you, then you will probably sale your property. This is an issue that is not going to please everyone, it has some things I agree with and some I don't but I don't agree with you just throwing out 40,000 more dollars of county money because "you" don't agree with the plan. I am strating to think this is not a county issue for you it is a personal one and you think alot of yourself and your ideas. This for me show what I have said many times. This issue is personal for you and political for some and it has nothing to do with what is best for the citizens of this county and long and you and the others achieve your own interest. That comment is exactly what I meant by smoke and mirrors.
None 2 years, 9 months ago
"Toda I am not going to have a conversation with you about intelligents." I'm glad we are not going to have conversations about intelligents.
August 16, 2010 at 9:56 a.m. => "Toda just more smoke and mirrors."
August 16, 2010 at 1:49 p.m. => "What I was referring to when I said smoke and mirrors was the same old political trick you have been pulling since this [converstation] was started months ago"
August 16, 2010 at 2:21 p.m. => "...best for the citizens of this county and long and you and the others achieve your own interest. That comment is exactly what I meant by smoke and mirrors."
Ok Bob which is it now? Try to focus here. Apparently you are doing too much smoking of non tax paid cigarettes ~ hand rolled no less. Are you having difficulty maintaining a complete train of thought? We understand…we'll be patient while you organize your thoughts.
Could you explain to me how to post a thread on a blog and not be "hiding behind my computer?" I don't use Blackberry's.
right2vote 2 years, 9 months ago
silentbob
so no amount of factual information can get through to you. you have read the blogs of toda and plumblevel and all you took from what they have said is that toda is full of political crap and plumblevel is only concerned about his/her house. wow! again, i reiterate is there no intelligent life out there? toda and plumblevel have written scores of thoughtful, well researched information on the insanity of spending this much money on a jail at this location (not because of his/her house but because of the proximity to children!!!!! in school, at the library, and at the ballfield) not to mention that many other communities have had similar requests for new public safety buildings for much less than 40 million taxpayer dollars. i'm sure when plumblevel mentioned that 40,000 was a lot less than 40 million - his/her point was just to say that we should have had the right to vote on this. what could you possibly be disagreeing with. do you have kids in primary school in carthage - do your children play in the ballfield across the street? do you have a need for your property taxes to go up so that we can make some criminals comfortable? or your property taxes to go down because of this monster in the middle of an historic town? have you attended all the town and commissioners meetings since this has all been revealed? we saw the plans last summer and listened to the rhetoric from the sheriff about the need for more beds - no one disagreed with their need but not in that place and not for that amount of money! what could you possibly be thinking????
right2vote 2 years, 9 months ago
sorry, i meant property values would go down due to the monster in town.
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
silentbob I will excuse your insult that I think alot of myself and my ideas. No one in their right mind decides to put a Federal Prison in the downtown of a residential district. Of course, I am fightng it. If I move to anywhere in Moore County the problem will follow me with higher property evaluations and increased taxes.
I say Federal Prison because that is exactly what this will be. A Detention Center of 200 or so inmates will never produce enough income to pay off a 40 million Revenue bond. The problem I have is with the mistruths Caddell and Picerno spew out. This will so called "Detention Center"/Future Federal Prison will be as large as they can make it to produce as much income for themselves and Moore County. It is just kept quiet for now what their true intentions are so there is not a mass riot.
So, I still say let us vote. The $40,000 will save us alot of money in the long run because I do not believe for one second Moore County wants to go into the business of criminals on the scale that Caddell/Picerno have in mind. So, if they continue to recuse themselves from voting on the jail where their own software is contracted then let us vote. It is only fair.
None 2 years, 9 months ago
Amen ~ plumblevel!
JohnChappell 2 years, 9 months ago
One of the comments above is a near-perfect example of a phrase often ill-used: “begging the question.”
As Florence well knows (since she never does it) “begging the question” does not mean “calling for a question to be asked” but, in fact, the very opposite. It means acting as if the question has already been asked and answered, when it hasn't been.
GRITS asks, “Why are the commissioners afraid to know what the voters really think?”
The question this begs is whether the commissioners acted in fear of what voters think. GRITS just asks why they are afraid -- beginning with the assumption that they are -- “begging” that question in other words.
It is far from established that the reason the county commission chose this kind of bond had anything to do with referendum fear.
Of course, they might have been; or not. Maybe they had entirely different reasons. Maybe they only wanted to move quickly while construction costs are cheaper than usual due to the recession. There may be other reasons.
GRITS, however, starts by assuming commissioners were afraid of a vote without offering the slightest evidence that they ever were. Nice to have a clear example, though, of “begging the question.”
It is an old rhetorical trick well-known to the ancients and discussed at some length by Aristotle. I'd quote him, but this typeface lacks Greek characters.
None 2 years, 9 months ago
"the county commission chose this kind of bond had anything to do with referendum fear." Perhaps the soundly defeated school bond referendum is still fresh in their minds. The Pilots' own poll represents a sample of voters who expressed their desire to cast their vote on the issue after all of the facts are made public. There is a shadow cast over transparanty with TPo3. A dark shadow....
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
JohnChappell
This evening at the MCBoC meeting the Commissioners were requested to make the 50 million dollar bond issue a public referendum on the November ballot by John Marcum of Pinehurst. Cindy Morgan put a motion forward to vote on it. Tim Lea seconded it. Caddell, Picerno, and Melton squashed it. So, John, does that tell you where their fears lie? If they were not afraid of what the public thinks then Caddell, Picerno, and Melton would have let it go to a public referendum. So, much for begging the question. Grits assumptions were right.
JoeGarrison 2 years, 9 months ago
Welcome to the Twilight Zone, bumbumbum buuuuuuum. In a world where a few citizens fear the evil trinity of Nick Picerno and co, three well respected men who have never been arrested or charged with corruption, a world where a man's screen name resembles that of Dorothy's dog Todo on the Wizard of Oz where, Plumbst...I mean plumblevel rants and raves about black helicopters and doomsday and of course the evil trinity, and where the other minions who are our guardians of reason and clarity abide. Thank you to the Pilot for opening our eyes to this world, a world where the rant, attack, misqote, or out right lie is the currency and anger, bitterness and hatred is the attitude of choice. A world I like to call Cookdom, its leader is Toad....sorry I mean Toda, freudian slip there, and plumblevel the royal chambermaid, and the other serfs who bow at their beckon call and quiver at every rant. Man, I tell you can't write this stuff, It should be illegal to laugh this hard:)
silentbob 2 years, 9 months ago
Toda again you show why you will never be a county commisioner or anything else in this county. I never said you use a blackberry, I don't care what you use. I don't smoke anything just remember I am still in LE I wasn't fired or let go. I am not ex LE like you are. Right2vote Carthage is the county seat so where do you want the detention center. It is going somewhere in this county. It seems to me that as long as it goes somewhere in the county other than Carthage you can deal with it. It cost money to run a goverment accept that and life will be easier for you. I also see that the 3 amigo's on here lost again last night that must of really hurt. I am glad the commisioners are not buying all this mess you are spewing out. Toda let me know when I can sign your petition I want to make sure you get on the ballot in November. I am going to get some enjoyment out of that vote.
None 2 years, 9 months ago
"Toda let me know when I can sign your petition" where would you like to meet to sign my petition? My email address is toda1@mindspring.com
Joey boy ~ creative writing no less.
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
None 2 years, 9 months ago
Children will be children...while reading fantasy and some even live in fantasy land....ice cream anyone?
silentbob 2 years, 9 months ago
Toda I will get up with you on the petition. I may bring some friends with me. Plumblevel why do you keep talking about Picerno and Caddell excusing themselves from the vote. I know why because without their vote you would get what you wanted but as you can see that is not going to happen. I also notice you continue to talk about morals and ethics, very good qualities to have and a must in most proffessions but we are all human and we all make mistakes. I respect you determination and the fight but you can't win them all. I also hope you know that Toda if he was ever elected would have his own agenda just like most politicians. He would be no different.
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
Joe What exactly are you on? Trying to divert attention away from the fact that your father in law refuses to recuse himself on issues where he has conflict of interest? He voted once again last night on the jail issue referendum.He once again refused to recuse himself from voting. As a matter of fact, he intentionally voted down the idea of a referendum for the 50 million dollar bond issue just to protect his 3-2 hold. This way he can build the showroom for Southern Software and develop product with a new testing center at the taxpayers expense.So your ranting will not divert attention away from the real issue here.
silentbob 2 years, 9 months ago
Plumblevel why do you keep saying the same thing. Nick has no reason to excuse himself from voting on the issue other than the fact that you say he needs to. I have not heard the county attorney or anyone else in a position that matters tell Nick he needed to. The fact is you keeping bringing up the idea that he may profit from the new jail, that issue is dead , can't you see that only a handful of people are listening to you. The only reason you want him to excuse himself from the vote is so Cindy and Lea can win the vote and give you what you want. Plumblevel I am going to say this again if there was a real issue with Nick and Larry Voting on this project more people than you would be hollering about it and some people in high positions would be involved. I have not seen that happen. In the past three or four months you have beat this issue to death because you don't want the jail in Carthage and Toda is living in a fantasy world thinking that a few people might vote for him. I think you and Toda should come up with 40,000 dollars since these issues are personal for the 2 of you and not in the best interest of the majority in this county.
JoeGarrison 2 years, 9 months ago
Well plumbsstu...level I guess when you live in a fantasy realm as you and the little Todo do I guess some satirical humor as well as truth does seem a bit odd.
CSmithson 2 years, 9 months ago
@toda I hate to jump in the middle of this, but am I missing a school bond in the last three years that was defeated? As far as I can recall, the last school bond on the ballot was in November 2007. As the article above and the following link confirm, both the MCS and SCC bonds, totalling $69.5 million, passed quite handily.
MC Board of Elections report (go to last page) http://www.co.moore.nc.us/webfiles/Boe/docs/07MNC_ABTRACT.pdf
Heck, the Commissioners didn't even raise taxes to pay for them, they just took the debt service payments out of the schools' operating budget. I don't know if the budget stresses have anything to do with it, but this year our County system overall finished near the back of the pack (96th out of 115 school systems- see link below) in meeting their performance targets. If funding is the issue, are a couple of pennies on the tax rate worth having 95 out of 115 school systems in the state beat us on this index?
http://abcs.ncpublicschools.org/abcs/abcAYPList.jsp?pYear=2009-2010
silentbob 2 years, 9 months ago
Its like I said earlier Toda only supplies the information on here that makes his argument look good. If there is any facts that might not support his own agenda he leaves them out. Now maybe you see what is meant by smoke and mirrors.
smblack 2 years, 9 months ago
@CSmithson,...", but this year our County system overall finished near the back of the pack (96th out of 115 school systems- see link below) in meeting their performance targets." Chris, I'm wondering about how you came to this assumption. Can't quite figure out your take on the data given. Can I assume you realize that the school systems are of different sizes, different diversity, and what the numbers might really be saying about each system? I know you care very deeply about our school system and I wouldn't want you to have the wrong impression about MCS' performance and the areas needing improvement. Sue Black
CSmithson 2 years, 9 months ago
@Sue Black If you follow the link I posted, you'll get the ABC's AYP results listed by school system. Click on the link there to download the table to an excel spreadsheet. Then, sort the table by "percent targets met." Excluding the statewide line, there are 115 school systems listed. At 80.3% of targets met, MCS ranks 96th.
While there are many different ways to look at the whole ABC numbers issue, I think this is a legitimate way to look at system performance. While the systems vary in size, demographics, and actual test scores, the goals for each school in the system are based on those and other unique circumstances. The goals look for progress. For one school it could be going from 85% passing to 90% passing. Another school may have a goal to improve from 45% to 50%. Thus, in this way, each school is compared to itself and not other schools in different situations. As the title, Adequate Yearly Progess indicates, they're looking for progress.
While just about every system in the state appears to have made some progress and met many of their goals, I don't think it is anything near an "assumption" to say that this table shows 95 school systems meeting their aggregate targets at a higher rate than Moore County Schools.
Chris
plumblevel 2 years, 9 months ago
96th place out of 115 school systems is 96th place no matter how you cut it. That is dreadful. I had no idea. Why is MC's performance so poor?
None 2 years, 9 months ago
Silentbob => "Toda I will get up with you on the petition. I may bring some friends with me." Ok ~ it takes about 10 seconds to send an email. Bring whomever you want! I'll have your buddies sign as well. Bring an armed regiment if you like Mr. LE.
"Plumblevel why do you keep talking about Picerno and Caddell excusing themselves from the vote." it's called conflict of interest. But I suppose you've read that as well. Want a link?
Perhaps you didn't realize that we are 104.2 Million in debt with an approved 105.2 Million.You obviously don't own property in Moore County.
Since you said you have read the cost analysis I referenced, what other information regarding county debt service would make me look better? How about saying since that since Nick Picerno was elected County debt has increased by a whooping 40%. Now that is business management at its worst. but then again it's not his money...it's ours.
None 2 years, 9 months ago
Our school system is bloated at the top with trickle down economics to the classrooms and teachers. I venture to say if the Central Office staff were cut in half, there would be no change in meeting operational goals. Only free up millions for classroom educators.
Chris ~ I'll send you some information tomorrow regarding the school bond attempt that failed. It's too late to contact Glenda.
CSmithson 2 years, 9 months ago
Just as a follow-up, I'll explain why I took a hard look at how Moore County Schools compares to other districts in the state when it comes to number of AYP targets met.
In just about every press release or interview from MCS representatives on the system's test scores, we hear that that Adequate Yearly Progress labeling is unfair. It is unfair because a school can reach 20 of 21 goals and fail to earn the "progress" label the same as one which only met 13 of 26. I agree that this all-or-nothing model does not tell the whole story. Clearly, a school meeting 95% of its goals is doing better than one meeting only 50%.
I figured there were plenty of schools and systems with this same complaint, so I studied the results. If you look at the chart I linked to, there are actually only six out of 115 school systems in the state in which ALL schools in the system met ALL their goals. Clearly, the other 109 systems are all not "bad" systems. Shouldn't we follow the guidance of MCS officials then and look at how many goals met even if we didn't meet them all?
Our neighbors to the south in Hoke County, met 95% of their goals, which put them in the top 20 in the state. I am sure they are pleased with their progress. Lee County met over 90% of their goals, putting them in the top 50. Moore County met 80.3% of its goals, which is not bad. In the end, however, 95 school systems met their target goals at a higher rate.
None 2 years, 9 months ago
Chris ~ thank you for the link and information. I must admit that I errored when I posted that the last school bond referendum failed in 2007. I stand corrected in that assessment. It was the LEVY OF LAND TRANSFER TAX that failed which was supported by TPo3. Caddell was promoting this new tax in an effort to raise revenue. My appology to all who read my misquote.
I feel this last failed vote provided insight into the mindset of voters and taxpayers. I wholeheartly believe that if we were given an opportunity to vote on the proposed 105.2 million - it's demise would follow the same voter indignation. Tommy Davis
silentbob 2 years, 9 months ago
Toda we are always armed Mr. ex LE. It is not a conflict it is like your other post it is a "percieved conflict of interest" by you and a handful of people that didn't get their way.
None 2 years, 9 months ago
Charlie Rangel (D-NY) has much to say about perceptions. What one does while in office and how those actions are perceived by the public speaks volumns about the content of ones character.